I’d put the 18# spring in, replace the trigger bar and spring, and see what happens.
I really don’t like the bending of the trigger bar spring. I think this is a bad idea, and has little benefit.
I’d put the 18# spring in, replace the trigger bar and spring, and see what happens.
I really don’t like the bending of the trigger bar spring. I think this is a bad idea, and has little benefit.
Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-25-2018 at 06:05 PM.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
I plan to replace it and measure before/after to quantify pull weight and claim that it reduces stacking. What I don’t have an easy way to do is gunk up the pistol with powder residue again. Maybe I should buy a pound of TiteGroup from one of my buddies. Who’da thunk I had a use for a dirty burning powder.Originally Posted by Clusterfrack
Maybe I need to OVER-bend a trigger bar spring to see if the failure mode matches. That would be interesting.
Or, maybe I manually gunk up the area between / around the trigger bad and frame to see if increased friction replicates the issue.
Promising ideas, I don’t have unlimited time though.
18# spring - eeeuuuuww! LOL. How about the 15#.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-25-2018 at 06:19 PM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
OK, some learning has occurred playing with the Trigger Bar Spring (TBS). I was using the 13# Hammer Spring.
Observations:
1) Without a TBS the trigger will not always catch and drive the DA - exactly what I saw earlier. Hold the gun upside down (simulating upside down minimal spring pressure) and the gun catches each time.
2) With the TBS relieved about as much as I could get it and still have it stay in place in the groove in the underside of the trigger bar, the gun still would catch each time. DA was 7 lbs 1 oz, SA 2 lbs 11 oz. Definitely lighter - but not a place that seems a good choice for reliability. More on this later.
3) With the TBS moderately relieved as I had it earlier (my first test), DA was 7 lbs 7 oz, SA 2 lbs 14 oz. Readings are probably +/- 1 oz, some variability across 5 pulls.
4) With the OEM TBS, I had a whopping 7 lbs 8 oz DA, and 2 lbs 15 oz SA - with maybe a few tenths of an ounce of stacking. So, little upside, and potential downside, therefore it is provably not worth messing with, right @Clusterfrack? Right? Hold on...
BUT (here’s the BUT) - With the OEM TBS I am not at or slightly past the point of not having enough overtravel for the gun to operate properly. Meaning the SA doesn’t reliably trip the sear now. SA is suddenly runnng maybe 3 lbs 2 oz or 6 lbs. With a weaker TBS I appear to have a touch more overtravel available and the sear trips properly.
I could see that a weaker trigger bar spring + some grit (built up carbon deposits between the frame and the trigger bar, for example) could prevent the Trigger Bar from engaging properly - and this is what I THINK I experienced, and it stopped after a quick and dirty cleaning.
Even with a full power TBS this isn’t exactly comforting, but knowledge is power.
I KNOW I polished the frame side of the trigger bar flat and well - 3000 grit against a piece of glass. I somewhat deliberately did not try to work on the plastic frame.
What I suspect it is that I will need a slightly different, perhaps 0.005” diameter (0.0025” radius) roller. Going back to my post where I installed the CGW Pro-Upgrade Kit:
I plan to call CGW tech support, but I’d like to try a 0.220” roller and a 0.230” roller. ... But hold that thought...TECH TIP: The OEM roller OD can vary quite a bit, ranging from .212″ – .225″. If possible, measure your OEM roller, ideally the CGW roller should have a slightly larger OD compared to the OEM roller. Call for tech support if needed.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
I might or might not accept this level of tinkering on a competition pistol, depending on how well I shot it, but on a carry gun?
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Studying the overtravel situation, it looks like I have about 0.065” of room between the back of thr trigger and the frame. The thing that is actually stopping the trigger from travelling further is the back of the slot in the polymer frame where the trigger travels. And it looks like removing 0.001 or so at a time from the back of the trigger slot would increase the possible trigger travel even more.
GL looks left, looks right, and convinced that no one is looking, enters [Third Person Mode]
He whips out a small flat diamond file and removes just a hair of polymer from the back of the trigger slot to mechanically increas overtravel. Hey, it’s for science, right? Grabbing a set of calipers, it appears that there is maybe 0.005” more overtravel room available. Hmmm, good. Let the evil flow.
A quick function test: SA now seems reliable. Like magic.
GL grins slyly to himself and thinks: I don’t call myself GuanoLoco for nothing. Then remembers he is writing this all down for your education and entertainment and exits [/Third Person Mode]
Retesting a well-lubed trigger is now showing a DA as expected at about 7 lbs 8 oz. There is now a reliable SA with 3 lbs 4 oz# range. WAIT, what happened to that beautiful 2 lb 15 oz SA test earlier? I dunno - trigger gauging this thing make me crazy sometimes.
I think it’s time to play with hammer springs. I still intend to call CGW and talk roller bearings though.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-25-2018 at 10:40 PM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
Hell I’m all kinds of brave on competition guns. I’ve worked on about 1/2 dozen Stock 2’s that take a pretty fair bit of parts and love to get into competition shape and they all run good. If get too agressive on something and I screw up I just start backing out / replacing parts until I get to a known good state, test the hell out of it and have at it. Truth be told though I run my competition guns in a pretty conservative config so I can run hard primers. I KNOW I could remove about 2 Lbs DA and 1 lb SA if I was willing to commit to Federal primers.
I don’t have your ammo budget but I do pretty good and have the ability too run many thousands of rounds learning just exactly how things work.
This CZ P-07 though, I’m still in my learning process. Even CGW has to disassemble, put in their parts and re-assemble. And that’s pretty much exaclty where I am at now, CGW Pro-Upgrade kit plus polishing some parts plus the 13# hammer spring (and I’m about to test 13# vs. 15# again).
If a gun is so sensitive that a simple polish job makes it a no-go, it’s not a gun I want to own, much less carry. If it has failure modes like grit on a Trigger bar, potentially impeding trigger reset, then I want to know what is going on, why, and how to mitigate it if possible.
Like I said, I’m in my learning process and I like to document my processes - this is how I roll.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-25-2018 at 10:44 PM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
13# Blue Hammer Spring: 7 lb 8 oz DA, 3 lbs 4 oz SA.
15# Gold Hammer Spring: 8 lbs 14 oz DA, 3 lb 10 oz SA
OEM (20#?) Stock Hammer Spring: 9 lb 8 oz DA, SA. On the 18# SA I am getting odd results - somewhat erratic SA about the same or LIGHTER than the 15# I jsut tested plus I am feeling that I am out of overtravel again and this is screwing with my results.
So, given my success with the 13” and CCI’s SPP’s to date, hammer springs to me seem more of a matter of personal preference of pull weight vs the premise that there is more room for slop in ‘combat’ conditions.
I haven’t gotten as far as ClusterFrack with testing using Small Rifle Primers, CCI#41 Military SRP’s in particular. Then again I don’t plan on shooting pistol rounds for practive or carry that are loaded with SRP’s either. I’m USUALLY not in extreme adverse conditions, unless you consider deliberately running pistols for a couple or few thousand rounds without little/no cleaning and maybe with some lube here and there to be adverse.
Can I run heavier DA/SA? Sure, but even though I fear not the DA pull there is a bit of a price in training effort, speed, accuracy and consistency, all otehr things being equal. Are you more likely to benefit from a better (somewhat lighter) DA/SA trigger or a hammer falling like Mjolnir? Hard to say.
FYI I am periodically getting some annoying variability in my trigegr weight testing. In general I am trying to err on the side of the ‘best’ pull weights that I can consistently get, using 5-10 pulls per test.
As a test I put the 13# hammer spring back, gave it about 20 “priming” cycles to get set and remeasured 10 pulls:
13# Hammer Spring: 7 lbs 3 oz DA, SA 3 lbs 3 oz and I am definitely back on the edge of running out of overtravel again. Maddening.
Enough for one evening... Next session I think I need to play with roller bearings - after consulting with CGW.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-26-2018 at 12:03 AM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
I looked at the overtravel on my two guns, and there is plenty of room between the trigger and frame after the SA sear breaks. I wonder if it has to do with how much material you removed from your trigger bar?
Mine are unpolished other than from use.
I’m running the 15# spring in my ProGrade gun, and OEM 20# in my mostly stock gun.
Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-25-2018 at 11:44 PM.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
The thought occurred to me and I will buy another trigger bar to be sure.
I don’t think I did but it’s one more thing worth testing.
One more thought - I don’t recall having that LITTLE overtravel after I installed the pro-upgrade kit 1000+ rounds ago, and this seems like something I would have noticed when I was playing with the Short Reset changes ... But maybe not, hard to say.
Is the OEM 20#? I thought it was 18#. I have a pair of OEM’s, one from the P-07 and the other from a P-01 Omega. My 18# test was probably a 20# then and I know where the 18 from CGW is. Sigh, more testing.
I’m a little surprised by the pull weight difference between the 13# and 15# - seems a rather big increment.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-26-2018 at 12:07 AM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
The OEM hammer spring is 20#.
I have a few more thoughts, mostly philosophical. This isn't really aimed at you @GuanoLoco, but I know you won't get butthurt anyway. Here are some of the things I don't find very important:
1. The exact weight of the DA trigger pull on my gun.
2. How the DA pull feels when I pull it REALLY S L O W.
3. Smoothness of the parts in my gun, and whether there are visible machining marks on them.
4. Tinkering to achieve a small improvement.
What I think are really important:
1. Reliability. I've tested 3 P-07s, and all pass my requirements of 1000+ rounds of trouble-free function. One of my guns is around 3k, and probably 10x that many dryfires. I have never had a failure during live or dryfire, unless I purposely caused it (see posts above).
2. Shoot-ability. Can I hit relatively small targets quickly, even in DA? Can I do the Ben Stoeger "Trigger Pull at Speed" drill in DA and not have the sights move? With the 15# spring, a Prograde Kit, and no polishing, that's a solid yes. With the 20# spring in a stock gun, and no polishing, I can do pretty darn well.
The functional difference in DA pulls with different trigger weights when you pull the trigger at a realistic speed isn't that great.
Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-26-2018 at 10:38 AM.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Reply With Quote