FBI to adopt 9 mm pistols

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Interesting thread. I have nothing technical to contribute but just some amusement.

I was told on two separate occasions by very large gentlemen - both well over six (one who hunted the moose and another an army vet) - who said that they fired a 45 and it damn near tore their arms off. Being an old FOG of 5'8 ish - I was surprised to see my arm still attached as I have fired 1000s. I do enjoy my 1911 as it enables me to practice malfunction drills more than my Glocks. Thanks to Tom Givens who taught to me to clear such. BTW, it's a SW 1911Sc and is finicky. Sigh.

I would protest the comment on fine cheese. I am an aficionado of such. In San Antonio/Austin area - one can go to Cabelas, then McBrides to look at guns and then proceed to the flagship Whole Foods, Central Market and Antonellis to buy the finest cheeses.

I note that the Swiss - a noted gun culture - also produce Extra Aged Appenzeller, Tete de Moine and Hock Ybrig - high end cheese for the expert. I intend to eat some of the latter for breakfast before tomorrow's IDPA match (shooting my G17, last match was the 1911).

On the issue of training - my research mind says that one would have to do a controlled study where a class of randomly assigned naive trainees go through the same protocols with the various calibers and guns to see if there are significant differences in outcomes - times, placement, splits, hits - whatever. Use reasonable quality ammo.

On the ND issue, Glock suffers from the trigger pull take down issue. Pulling the trigger on a gun is a trap for anyone (despite training), given the vagaries of human memory. You might think it won't happen to you. Think about it as you look for your car at WalMart or your keys at home.

The four rules - ingrained in the best. Yeah - I recall the horrified look at a nationally known trainer who asked about the draw stroke, proceeded to draw a loaded gun on a student. He was a touch shaken by the mistake.

[LSP972]

As I read the document, it did not list the "Class One" pistol as having to have a capacity of 13 rounds. It listed it as having to have a minimum capacity of 13 rounds. So you wouldn't need a short butt version of the VP9.

I didn't say they did. I was pointing out that the 13 round minimum made the P2000- and a shortened VP9 (that used the P2000 13 round magazine, if one should materialize)- competitive.

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[GardoneVT]

Yes, the FBI has been issuing 9mm handguns to agents for a while...especially smaller ones and those who have had trouble qualifying. They've also had continuing problems with their .40 caliber Glocks. Surprise, surprise.

Terminal ballistics don't mean much if you can't make the gun go bang reliably in the first place.

Marginal guns firing a good cartridge that's harder to shoot should rationally lose out to reliable guns firing a good cartridge that's easier to shoot. I know there are world famous uber-expert bloggers who disagree, but I'm going to have to side with the FBI ballistics guys like Boone and the guys who have trained thousands of federal LE at Quantico and FLETC on this.

9 and .40 are both adequate when loaded properly. Adequate is about as good as it gets in a handgun intended to be used as a defensive sidearm by large numbers of people.

The guns chambered in .40 and the training given to most police officers toting such weapons is often quite inadequate.

That brings me to another question for the pros: is .40 S&W in duty loadings too powerful for long term durability in 9mm frame handguns?

[LSP972]

That brings me to another question for the pros: is .40 S&W in duty loadings too powerful for long term durability in 9mm frame handguns?

The local PD operates close to 800 of them (mainly G22s, some G17s). They just last year replaced their entire "fleet", after several of the G22s failed… most during in-service quals, but one during a gunfight. The guns were almost ten years old, averaging less than 300 rounds per gun per year. The "third pin" shearing was the main issue; and that locked up the pistols completely. But there were other signs of the guns getting beat up by the cartridge, I was told. Ammunition has always been factory 180gr ball, with some 180gr Gold Dot on occasion (their duty round).

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[Haraise]

That brings me to another question for the pros: is .40 S&W in duty loadings too powerful for long term durability in 9mm frame handguns?

You're going to need to define 'too powerful,' for any meaningful discussion here.

Too powerful: That it won't work. Obviously not.
Too powerful: Things will break more. Obviously so.

As an example, in 2006 BMW came out with a turbo six cylinder that made 300 horsepower. People found that with the change of software calibration and nothing else, one could add almost 50% more power. If BMW had come out with this from the factory, the car would have been heralded as an amazing performer.

But was the car too powerful? It did work, and that was enough for the people doing it. Nothing broke immediately. Was it too powerful? Things broke more, long term. Every mechanical object has only so much strength, and more power will cause more issues as you move into counting on the areas that were overbuilt for reliability. Was it too powerful? People with long term, expensive issues (oil cooling, engine bearings) might have said 'no' when buying it, but 'yes' when the repair bill came in.

The only gun I'd recommend .40 to people in, is the M&P. It seems built around the round, even the recoil isn't so bad there. I'm likely missing information about other guns designed for .40 (P229, as an example), but that's all I have experience with back to back.

[TCinVA]

A good rule of thumb is that pistols designed as 9mm don't do so well in .40. Glocks and the Beretta 96 series would be good examples of this. Meanwhile S&W's steel 3rd gen pistols worked splendidly and stayed in service for quite a while after S&W wanted to stop making them.

[JBP55]

A local SWAT Team estimated roughly 100,000 rounds were fired from their 10 year old Gen 3 G35 pistols when they were replaced with the Gen 4 G35. All were still in working order but two were starting to keyhole.

[Force Majeure]

Brother, you read my mind!

[Force Majeure]

The local PD operates close to 800 of them (mainly G22s, some G17s). They just last year replaced their entire "fleet", after several of the G22s failed… most during in-service quals, but one during a gunfight. The guns were almost ten years old, averaging less than 300 rounds per gun per year. The "third pin" shearing was the main issue; and that locked up the pistols completely. But there were other signs of the guns getting beat up by the cartridge, I was told. Ammunition has always been factory 180gr ball, with some 180gr Gold Dot on occasion (their duty round).

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Third Pin Shearing=too cheap to replace the fucking recoil spring!

[LSP972]

Third Pin Shearing=too cheap to replace the fucking recoil spring!

Perhaps… but Glock suggests replacement at the 5K mark, yes? Practically all of these pistols were not even close to that.

The bottom line is, the .40 S&W cartridge is hard on guns… period. Too much anecdotal (and documented) evidence exists to even suggest otherwise. Some guns handle it better than others.

Its also hard on shooters. Most of the officers of the afore-mentoned agency would welcome a change to 9mm. They offer G17s for those who have trouble with the .40, and always have more requests for the 9mm than they have G17s to issue.

There is a groundswell movement in LE to move away from the .40 and back to the 9mm… as evidenced by the existence of this thread. The reasons can be whatever you choose to believe… but its happening. I personally know of a half-dozen FTU people, from different agencies, who would do so in a heartbeat if their administrators would authorize it.

Make of that what you will.

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