Reenactment (short film) of Kyle Dinkheller shooting **GRAPHIC**

[tanner]

Looked like a terrible situation that went from uncontrolled to grave in seconds. Not being in LE, I would be interested in the lessons beyond have back-up.

I took two major lessons from that video.

1. Control your scene. When dealing with people first I ask for compliance. If that doesn't work, they get told what to do with an explanation as to the consequences of further non compliance if necessary. I am usually laid back and will take the time to talk people down, but that only goes if I feel like the situation is improving and not escalating. If things are still not going the way I want it to after that then it is time to act and act decisively. I choose a course of action that I am 100% certain that I am justified in taking so there is no hesitation on my part.

The physical fight should have started, at a minimum, when the subject charged the officer. Using 20/20 hindsight, that would have prevented the rifle from coming into play, but also it would have helped take back the initiative, stopping the subject from dictating the course of action.

2. Commitment to the use of force. Once you make the realization that you are fighting against a deadly threat, respond with your own attack using overwhelming violence. Do not de-escalate until the situation calls for it (which would be when you are fully in control).

[KeeFus]

My take aways since I viewed the original video many years ago:

1. Hands on should have occured at the moment the suspect charged him/got in his face.

2. The moment the butt stock became visible he should have shot the guy. Waiting some ~40 seconds giving commands whilst the suspect prepared for a battle was way too long. Suspect stated he was a combat vet and was aggressive. Justifying deadly force the moment the suspect displayed a firearm would not have been an issue.

3. As others have already mentioned, mindset. Its the one thing that I've seen and experienced that determines the outcomes not only in deadly force situations but physical confrontations.

[JHC]

. For citizens the lessons are less obvious, but if you give it some thought they are apparent.

Imagine if you were involved in a fender bender with an insane or violent person - like I was not too long ago. At what point are you, as a citizen, ready to respond with a an appropriate response to overt, spoken threats to your life? At what point are you ready to respond to overt, unspoken threats like the one in the video? Failing either of those, at what point do you get in your car and leave immediately? And once you've made the decision to engage, are you capable of doing what you need to do with your chosen instrument at the range you find yourself at?

The officer in this case was not prepared to answer any of those questions before they were asked. And if we, as card carrying good guys, aren't ready to answer them at a moment not of our choosing, then we cannot expect a different result.

I personally, in a similar situation, was not ready to answer those questions. That prompted me to seek out training from Givens and Southnarc. More than anything, I think the lesson to be learned here is to understand "mindset" and to know your limitations in that area and seek out the means to overcome them.

ETA: glad to see more authoritative responses in the time it took me to type this out.

When I share this video with some folks (non-LE but some in the Mil) I will be using this quote to get them thinking. Thank you.

[Chuck Haggard]

I use this video in recruit school to show the trend that we see in LE so very often; If you use the correct ammount of force early you can often avoid having to use more force later.

In the words of one of my mentors, if they buy the ticket they need to get the ride, no discounts, no two-for-ones.

Had the deputy done something like use OC and then go hands on to arrest, or Taser, or had baton skills that actually worked (really poor baton skills are epidemic in LE across the board) then this would have never turned into a shooting. Bad guy was arrestable the very second he charged at the deputy.

Agreed the deputy should have started shooting the minute dude reached behind the seat of the truck.

I understand, through the grapevine, that Deputy Dinkheller had been disciplined in the recent past, just before this incident, for "excessive force" or some such thing, and that he was likely a bit worried about "getting into trouble". If true then he wouldn't be the first LEO that worried himself into an early grave.


I will add that the deputy could have even jumped in the car and hit reverse and kept himself alive, which for a CCW person in the fender-bender scenario would have been a really good idea.

[JHC]

I use this video in recruit school to show the trend that we see in LE so very often; If you use the correct ammount of force early you can often avoid having to use more force later.

In the words of one of my mentors, if they buy the ticket they need to get the ride, no discounts, no two-for-ones.

Had the deputy done something like use OC and then go hands on to arrest, or Taser, or had baton skills that actually worked (really poor baton skills are epidemic in LE across the board) then this would have never turned into a shooting. Bad guy was arrestable the very second he charged at the deputy.

Agreed the deputy should have started shooting the minute dude reached behind the seat of the truck.

I understand, through the grapevine, that Deputy Dinkheller had been disciplined in the recent past, just before this incident, for "excessive force" or some such thing, and that he was likely a bit worried about "getting into trouble". If true then he wouldn't be the first LEO that worried himself into an early grave.


I will add that the deputy could have even jumped in the car and hit reverse and kept himself alive, which for a CCW person in the fender-bender scenario would have been a really good idea.

I rile some friends by almost always taking the LEO's side in publicized incidents - especially those involving video that initially to the casual observer look "excessive". I include Rodney King in that.

I personally like the movie "Deep Blue" as ridiculous as it's portrayal of a certain LAPD unit may be. Got that. But the lunch break scene with the Kurt Russell character's rant about the trend of taking away tactics that did work; then hanging them for using the tactics that don't work; makes the whole movie.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ironically, and I point this out in a couple of the classes that I do, the LAPD guys who beat the crap out of Rodney (and make no mistake, that was a botched use of force on so many levels) actually saved his life. The CHP officer who initated the car stop would likely have shot him dead due to having no other viable alternative and being caught up in a serious disparity of force situation.

[JHC]

Ironically, and I point this out in a couple of the classes that I do, the LAPD guys who beat the crap out of Rodney (and make no mistake, that was a botched use of force on so many levels) actually saved his life. The CHP officer who initated the car stop would likely have shot him dead due to having no other viable alternative and being caught up in a serious disparity of force situation.

They saved her that pile of trouble and got ate up for it. IIRC she testified against them.

[HCM]

All very good points re Lessons learned from Deputy Dinkheller's mindset and actions, however, there are also lessons to be learned by examining the mindset and actions of the perpetrator. It is a prime example of the effectiveness of mindset, willingness and violence of action, i.e. what Pat Rogers refers to as the "mean gene".

The perpetrator took the initiative early in the encounter leaving Deputy Dinkheller behind the curve the whole time. It's a classic example of " More force sooner = Less force later".

In the video, you can see the perpetrator was shot once in the abdomen but the hit was not effective ( i believe it was a .40 cal). The perpetrator merely pauses momentarily before continuing to bring the fight to Deputy Dinkheller. Again demonstrating the importance of mindset and shot placement.

Dont underestimate your opponents. I don't know for sure if its true or not, but in the video, you can hear the perpetrator state he is a Vietnam Veteran which may explain his mindset and tactics. He certaimly did an effective job of assaulting under fire, fixing Deputy Dinkheller in place and killing him via fire and maneuver.

[Chuck Haggard]

In the LE version of the training video I saw there was bits on the interview later with the bad guy. He knew that an officer might be wearing a "flak vest" and so he shot for the extremities until Dinkheller was down, then ran up and shot him in the head and neck. I'd say that was a bad guy who had put some pre-planning into things.

They saved her that pile of trouble and got ate up for it. IIRC she testified against them.

Yeah, they did, but then they went full retard. I don't look at testimony as for or against, I look at it as the truth, it is what it is. For or against requires spin IMHO.



The Rodney King incident was also, among other things, a case of the law of unintended consequences. LAPD lost the neck restraint as a tactic before Rodney got stupid, because idiots don't know what they don't know and protested the use of such, didn't help that Chief Gates made some stupid decisions and siad some really stupid things ref that subject.
In earlier times Rodney would have been quickly submitted or rendered unconcious, cuffed and stuffed and taken to jail with zero to near zero injuries.

[Totem Polar]

Not much to add that more expert people haven't already said, save for two thoughts: One, this vid was shown in one class I attended as an example of the serious need to "break the freeze"; the deputy was stuck in a loop.

Ultimately, though, the first thing I think each time I see the original clip (aside from steeling myself against the nausea mentioned elsewhere above) is the words attributed to Paul Gomez: "Most people don't get aggressive enough, fast enough". Sadly, that maxim applies in spades with officer D n this case.