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Thread: Institutional Problems at the Dallas PD

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Copious notes... made the whole thing go away without even a settlement payment.
    That worked for us… once. We had three "special" folks who couldn't stay on a B-27 at seven yards. One was even hitting the freakin' CONCRETE at seven yards. No video, but we documented the hell out of the whole thing, and terminated them when they failed to qualify, despite an enormous amount of (documented) re-training effort on our part.

    Naturally, all three filed a racial discrimination suit, which was dismissed out-of-hand at every level up to the state supreme court. Those worthies actually looked into the case pretty thoroughly… and ruled in our favor.

    So we sat back, fat, dumb, and happy, congratulating ourselves on good work. Little did we know, that lawsuit had frightened the kitten out of the command staff… and things began to change quickly.

    First thing to go was the fifty yard line. We required our people to qualify at the 50; 24 rounds from four different positions. We were using the 60 round National Police Course at the time. As you might imagine, the long line separates the men from the boys in regards to handgun marksmanship. State Police and the possum cops (state wildlife agents) were the only ones doing it, and it kind of set us apart.

    Well, the lightning bolt from The Puzzle Palace (our name for HQ) came down from On High… no cadet or active trooper shall be required to pass anything other than that mandated by the state P.O.S.T. Council. Which of course, specified the 25 yard line as max.

    And it went rapidly downhill from there…

    The average citizen (those who are aware, anyway) moan and groan about the "dumbing down" of our schools… and rightfully so. Few of those folks realize that their police departments have suffered the same fate; and sometimes much worse.

    .

  2. #12
    If memory serves, there was a major scandal involving a PD going off the reservation and the investigation revealed that the the city government was no longer letting the PD manage the applicant process and that the city HR was doing all of the hiring of officers.

    Seems like it was the Rampart thing, but I may gave my big city goat ropings confused.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Video of these events is your friend.

    I and another SGT were sued, along with my PD, for recommending that a female recruit be terminated before the end of our academy due to multiple failures to apply proper decision making in UOF scenarios.
    She literally shot or otherwise used deadly force on every single roll player in which she had to use any force at all during the scenario, yet we were biased due to her being a female (didn't matter that the other three females in that class were graded as doing fine).

    Copious notes and video of said scenarios made the whole thing go away without even a settlement payment.
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    That worked for us… once. We had three "special" folks who couldn't stay on a B-27 at seven yards. One was even hitting the freakin' CONCRETE at seven yards. No video, but we documented the hell out of the whole thing, and terminated them when they failed to qualify, despite an enormous amount of (documented) re-training effort on our part.

    Naturally, all three filed a racial discrimination suit, which was dismissed out-of-hand at every level up to the state supreme court. Those worthies actually looked into the case pretty thoroughly… and ruled in our favor.

    So we sat back, fat, dumb, and happy, congratulating ourselves on good work. Little did we know, that lawsuit had frightened the kitten out of the command staff… and things began to change quickly.

    First thing to go was the fifty yard line. We required our people to qualify at the 50; 24 rounds from four different positions. We were using the 60 round National Police Course at the time. As you might imagine, the long line separates the men from the boys in regards to handgun marksmanship. State Police and the possum cops (state wildlife agents) were the only ones doing it, and it kind of set us apart.

    Well, the lightning bolt from The Puzzle Palace (our name for HQ) came down from On High… no cadet or active trooper shall be required to pass anything other than that mandated by the state P.O.S.T. Council. Which of course, specified the 25 yard line as max.

    And it went rapidly downhill from there…

    The average citizen (those who are aware, anyway) moan and groan about the "dumbing down" of our schools… and rightfully so. Few of those folks realize that their police departments have suffered the same fate; and sometimes much worse.

    .
    It ended up not being a big ordeal for me, but there has been a lot of popcorn opportunities since then with that same individual. Funny thing is that was completely forgotten that I stood up for her on another instance to the point that the offending party was terminated.

    As to qualifying, I was front an center for one interesting development. As I mentioned above, newbies attend a regional academy. It was agency policy to take all graduates and pre-certified new hires to qualify prior to letting them go on the road. This was prior to the state changing the rules concerning the standard course, and the agency course differed from what was being shot in the academy. I took a group of three graduates to the range with two out of the three failing to qualify.

    I took them back to the PD and turned in the results. The admin allowed them to continue as if it never happened and the policy was modified.

    Keep in mind that the graduates involved had met the state standard; so, it wasn't like they hadn't qualified at all. Also, we did get a positive result out of it all that the firearms instructors had been requesting
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  4. #14
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    I mentioned a while back in another post, that I was acting as a range safety officer at FLETC. A female Secret Service agent trainee repeatedly lost control of her pistol during “downed and disabled officer drill” Shooting from a fetal position, one handed, as the gun recoiled she kept pointing it at the back of the person next to her. I told her if she did not get it together, she was off the line. A senior instructor took me aside… after several minutes of discussion and some stupid suggestions on me using my leg to keep her gun down range, I was sent down the line, not her. Apparently, she was the type to sue, so she was allowed to be unsafe.

    I have seen the same thing over and over and over.

    About two weeks ago, the old boy network of instructors informed me that a lawsuit was being threatened because I denied a long gun to a female agent. She complained that she shot a passing qual score (207 out of 250), but I would not sign off that she could carry the rifle. I told the guy giving me the heads up that after the qual, I told her to remove the magazine and to make sure the bolt was locked to the rear, weapon on safe. She could not figure out how to lock the bolt to the rear… after an 8 hour day of basic rifle 101, on how to run the gun, assembly/disassembly, such. After about 5 minutes of watching her unable to simply lock the bolt to the rear (and watching her nearly choke herself out trying to use the sling, and putting in the mag backwards at one point), I refused to certify that she was safe to carry on the street. Fortunately, the old boys tell me management has my back on this one.
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    I mentioned a while back in another post, that I was acting as a range safety officer at FLETC. A female Secret Service agent trainee repeatedly lost control of her pistol during “downed and disabled officer drill” Shooting from a fetal position, one handed, as the gun recoiled she kept pointing it at the back of the person next to her. I told her if she did not get it together, she was off the line. A senior instructor took me aside… after several minutes of discussion and some stupid suggestions on me using my leg to keep her gun down range, I was sent down the line, not her. Apparently, she was the type to sue, so she was allowed to be unsafe.

    I have seen the same thing over and over and over.

    About two weeks ago, the old boy network of instructors informed me that a lawsuit was being threatened because I denied a long gun to a female agent. She complained that she shot a passing qual score (207 out of 250), but I would not sign off that she could carry the rifle. I told the guy giving me the heads up that after the qual, I told her to remove the magazine and to make sure the bolt was locked to the rear, weapon on safe. She could not figure out how to lock the bolt to the rear… after an 8 hour day of basic rifle 101, on how to run the gun, assembly/disassembly, such. After about 5 minutes of watching her unable to simply lock the bolt to the rear (and watching her nearly choke herself out trying to use the sling, and putting in the mag backwards at one point), I refused to certify that she was safe to carry on the street. Fortunately, the old boys tell me management has my back on this one.
    Such horror stories abound; from coast to coast. I've got more than my share, but I've probably said too much already. Just glad to be OUT of the game, completely. I go once a year and shoot my 60 rounds for qual, and the rest of the time I do what I want, when it pleases me, shooting-wise.

    .

  6. #16
    At the risk of going OT, what do you do as a LEO when you end up next to a "Special Person" on assignment due to politics?

    I had a hard enough time working with the military's breed of silliness, and I was in an office . Working a dangerous patrol next to someone I knew was only good at shooting the dirt in 7 yards wouldn't fill me with positive vibes, to say the least.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    At the risk of going OT, what do you do as a LEO when you end up next to a "Special Person" on assignment due to politics?
    Document and video or voice record everything. When it comes to officer safety the other guys know who that person is and we back each other up when on calls with them. They may be special but they are a life...no need to let them kill them self.

  8. #18
    Site Supporter hufnagel's Avatar
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    thanks. y'all are giving me nightmares.
    Rules to live by: 1. Eat meat, 2. Shoot guns, 3. Fire, 4. Gasoline, 5. Make juniors
    TDA: Learn it. Live it. Love it.... Read these: People Management Triggers 1, 2, 3
    If anyone sees a broken image of mine, please PM me.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Wichita
    Fortunately, regardless of pencil neck politics, the boys and girls in the field know who does the job and who doesn't. "Special" folks naturally tend to get isolated and marginalized. The old adage of "You watch the horses." applies here. Most of the "special" people I've had to deal with were moved out of the field relatively quickly by their "sponsors" in order to shield both parties from the cluster f*** that was sure to follow. If the individual is not just a pogue but also a snake in the grass, then recordings and documentation can be career savers.

  10. #20
    In my experience, political correctness and fear of liability are major themes in modern law enforcement. I think both of those issues are taken to unnecessary extremes at times. I sometimes find it very entertaining when the 2 issues are present in the same situation. Before observing these situations first hand, I would have guessed that fear of liability would trump political correctness but the opposite has proven to be true.
    My comments have not been approved by my employer and do not necessarily represent the views of my employer. These are my comments, not my employer's.

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