Question regarding legality of traffic stop

[Luke]

Not sure if this belongs here.. I know most of you are well versed in laws pertaining to guns. I tried to find the info online but was unable.

My buddy was stopped today for "running a red light" which is BS but that's a different story all together..

He was pulled over while carrying, with his CCL which is all you need in Alabama. He was very polite to the officer. Even talked guns for a few minutes ( his EDC was the cops as we'll). The officer then asked him to hand over his pistol so the cop could "make sure it's not stolen". Now I know that no days they have the ability to ask you for your weapon if they feel threatened.. But can they legally demand it to specifically call in the serial numbers to make sure it's not stolen? His license came back fine, CCL up to date and presented with license and insurance and was up front with the cop about being armed. I told him I think it's illegal. Would this not fall under illegal search and seizure?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Not sure if this belongs here.. I know most of you are well versed in laws pertaining to guns. I tried to find the info online but was unable.

My buddy was stopped today for "running a red light" which is BS but that's a different story all together..

He was pulled over while carrying, with his CCL which is all you need in Alabama. He was very polite to the officer. Even talked guns for a few minutes ( his EDC was the cops as we'll). The officer then asked him to hand over his pistol so the cop could "make sure it's not stolen". Now I know that no days they have the ability to ask you for your weapon if they feel threatened.. But can they legally demand it to specifically call in the serial numbers to make sure it's not stolen? His license came back fine, CCL up to date and presented with license and insurance and was up front with the cop about being armed. I told him I think it's illegal. Would this not fall under illegal search and seizure?

In Ohio, we can do that - but I choose not to handle a firearm unless I have a reason to check NCIC.

[ST911]

Even talked guns for a few minutes

Did he learn something from that?

[Luke]

Which one?

[jmcrawf1]

In Louisiana, a person has to submit to being disarmed as a condition of their concealed handgun license. It's the officer's discretion whether or not to disarm.

Sounds like the officer was being a little lackadaisical with his "Hand it over so I can run it" technique. However, he was most likely within his right to do so, albeit he probably should've been a little more professional about it. A check of the NCIC database is not a search pursuant to the 4th amendment. It doesn't require reasonable suspicion to be able to access its info.

[Dagga Boy]

Two sides to every story. I was disarmed on a traffic stop in Texas. I really didn't care about that as much as I did the officer safety and tactics mistakes that nearly threw me into FTO mode, but that is a different story. The key is that if the officer is hinked up about the gun, then let them do what they need to do.

The first thing that struck me when reading the second hand one side of the story was the carry of the same type of gun as the officer's. I am thinking that may have pinged something in the officers mind that one of his co-workers may have been a victim of a burglary and lost a duty gun of that type (or left it on a toilet somewhere). May have been just going with the simple check to ensure it wasn't a co-workers gun. Hard to believe, but LEO's go above and beyond when their stuff gets stolen. So, it could be something fairly innocent with some probable cause. People regularly base and opinion of what is going on based on one side without full knowledge of what is in the officers mind. Would it have been best to play things casual and just use a legal means to run the gun to be sure, or tell your friend "one of our guys had one of those stolen in a burglary last week, I need to check to make sure you didn't steal it". If "the truth" was said, the complaint would be "the cop thought I was a crook".

I know first hand that LEO's can be jerks, stupid, insensitive, mean, ill-informed, crooked, etc. However; it isn't as rampant as most people think, because often the public that LEO's encounter exhibit the same traits. I have always found that remaining a little neutral and giving some benefit of the doubt in these cases results in better understanding.

[jlw]

Not sure if this belongs here.. I know most of you are well versed in laws pertaining to guns. I tried to find the info online but was unable.

My buddy was stopped today for "running a red light" which is BS but that's a different story all together..

He was pulled over while carrying, with his CCL which is all you need in Alabama. He was very polite to the officer. Even talked guns for a few minutes ( his EDC was the cops as we'll). The officer then asked him to hand over his pistol so the cop could "make sure it's not stolen". Now I know that no days they have the ability to ask you for your weapon if they feel threatened.. But can they legally demand it to specifically call in the serial numbers to make sure it's not stolen? His license came back fine, CCL up to date and presented with license and insurance and was up front with the cop about being armed. I told him I think it's illegal. Would this not fall under illegal search and seizure?

Consent searches are completely legal. If he asked your buddy, and your buddy consented, then in the eyes of the law it was good to go. If he ordered your buddy to turn over the firearm, it isn't cut and dry.

In GA, we have case law directly on point; State v. Jones, 289 Ga. App. 176 (2008); where the court ruled that there was no carte blanche authority to seize firearms on a traffic stop. The officer in the case testified that he took the firearm because he had a "standard practice" of taking all firearms on stops to run the numbers.

I have never researched AL case law on the matter.

---

With all of the above being said, and this isn't a slam on your buddy, but second hand accounts of a story often vary greatly from what actually happened. While not common but not uncommon either, I field complaints from parents who are complaining based upon their child's version of the traffic stop or other encounter. Usually, the video of the stop tells a vastly different story than the one that came from the parent's call.

[ST911]

This July, 2011 quip from John Farnam is particularly good, and on-point. I share it often with citizens and LE alike.

21 July 11
Advice to legal CCW license-holders:

Most states now issue CCW licenses to non-police citizens with no criminal record. In those states, CCW licenses cannot be arbitrarily denied. They’re not hard to get, for the most part. The CCW license itself does not require the holder to carry a concealed gun, nor, for that matter, to even own a gun! It simply gives him the option, at his discretion. Some states, such as FL, have had their CCW statute in place for several decades now. In other states, such as WI, its passage and implementation is very recent.

A few states legally require all CCW License holders to “promptly inform” police officers with whom they come in close contact (such as in a traffic-stop) of their legally-armed status. Most states have no such requirement. Even where there is such a requirement in law, the manner in which it is to be actually carried out by the CCW licensee is not specifically described.

Most individual police officers and police executives have no objection to these “shall-issue” CCW laws, and have in fact, secured CCW licenses for their own spouses and other eligible family members. However, some officers, even entire departments, still exhibit a depraved anti-gun agenda that has led to unnecessarily disagreeable, even menacing, confrontations with legitimate CCW licensees.

Here is my advice to CCW licensees:

1) Be in bed by ten o’clock! Police regard those who are up and about late at night as less respectable, and more dangerous, than “normal” people, who sleep during the night and are active during daylight hours. A “nocturnal” life-style is fraught with peril and unhappiness!

2) Have a “normal” appearance. Police officers automatically focus on “unusual” things and circumstances. That’s their job! Simply looking “normal” goes as long way toward putting police officers at ease. Who insist on covering themselves with tattoos, dyeing their hair purple, and having a “face-by-Ace-Hardware” will discover that they garner a great deal of attention, most of it unwanted.

3) Keep your pistol discreetly concealed, and don’t talk about it. The vast majority of people with whom you associate should never know it is there.

4) Stay away from places where people are in a highly-emotional state. Emotionally-charged sporting events, political rallies, picket-lines, et al are good places not to be. When confronted by highly-emotional people, politely disengage and withdraw.

5) Don’t hang-out with boisterous, slatternly, rowdy people, nor with people who have been drinking excessively. They will have an unhappy evening. Don’t join them!

6) Be a courteous, cautious, conservative driver. Don’t speed and don’t show-off. Who do, had better get used to talking with police!

7) When pulled over in traffic by police, don’t voluntarily bring up the subject of guns, unless required by law. In that case, put it something like this, “Officer, I have a permit. Would you like to see it?” Drive a “normal-looking” car. Keep you hands in plain view. Be polite, but boring. Don’t “interrogate” police. Answer questions truthfully, but don’t be chatty. Don’t volunteer information. Don’t answer questions that weren’t asked! When around police, don’t verbalize the term, “gun.”

8) When berated, even threatened, by police, do not answer in kind. Remain calm and polite. Indicate to them that you want to talk with their supervisor. When bombarded with accusations and threats, indicate to them that you want your lawyer personally present before answering any further questions. Repeat as necessary.

9) Don’t fail the “attitude test!” Displaying a belligerent, arrogant, combative attitude around police will almost certainly lead to caustic confrontations and a cheerless evening. Be always even-tempered, polite, reasonable, and in-control, never loud and defensive.

Here is my advice to my brother police officers:

1) Get over it! It’s the law now. Your personal opinion is irrelevant. Besides, no class of citizens represents less of a threat to police officers than do legal CCW license-holders. They are the ones we should fear least!

2) Don’t ask legally-armed citizens why they own, and carry, guns. Frankly, it’s none of your business! They are merely exercising their rights as Americans and as citizens of your state. It is no different than attending the church of their choice or writing letters to their Congressman. None of those activities are immoral, nor illegal.

3) Don’t pointlessly humiliate and denigrate people legally carrying concealed guns. No legitimate purpose is served in stripping them of their dignity by disarming them in public and in front of their families and friends. Legally concealed guns need to stay in holsters, out of sight, and out of conversation. The last thing you want is a gun being waved around inside a car, because you indicated that you “wanted to see it!”

A little respect goes as long way, both ways!
/John

[BJJ]

Thanks, Skintop. Good advice from Farnam.

[Corvus]

I have read there is case law to the effect that there has to be a "reason to believe the weapon is stolen" before they have the cause to "run the numbers" but it has been years since I read it and do not remember the state or specific case.