Proficient Enough to NOT use Iron Sights?

[johnnyyukon]

Does this ever happen with a pistol? You have shot so many rounds, maybe grew up shooting.

Or did I just pull this out of my kitten?

I imagine at very long distances this would not apply, even if it were true.

[Failure2Stop]

There are distances at which I do not need to see anything other than the target to get hits, distances at which I need only a slide reference distances at which I can target focus but need blurry aligned sights, and distances that I need a hard sight focus. Experience makes those distances longer and target smaller in which a hit can be guaranteed.

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[Dagga Boy]

Here is how I explain it these days. The fundamentals are like riding a horse. The reigns and bit are the sights, the saddle is grip, and the stirrups/legs are the trigger.

You can ride the horse with parts being out of balance if the other parts can make up for it. If you have a great saddle (great grip) are very good with your leg control (trigger), the input from the reigns is minimal....maybe just holding them with little or no input. Riding bareback with no tack at all and without even holding on to the horses mane, and good luck with staying on.

If you have an exceptional grip, and have shot so much that you can almost see your sights sub-consciously and a great trigger press.....then you need very little on those sights. This is especially true on a non moving target. Once things go dynamic, you need more input. Also, if parts of the fundamentals are bad, you will need more of the other. Part of what I attribute the success of many of my people was a HEAVY emphasis on sight use and trigger press, because many folks (and especially LEO's) tend to get a really poor grip on a true surprise reactionary draw.

[45dotACP]

Sight alignment isn't necessarily the biggest factor in accurate hits. At 7 yards, you can align the sights such that the front blade is obscured by a corner of the rear sight. You'll probably still be in the A-zone if your trigger press is perfect. That means to me, the trigger press is the most important part of accuracy (to me).

[TCinVA]

Does this ever happen with a pistol? You have shot so many rounds, maybe grew up shooting.

Or did I just pull this out of my kitten?

I imagine at very long distances this would not apply, even if it were true.

It's extremely easy to overestimate how well unsighted fire works when you're using a large static target on a bright range from a static shooting position.

Try it in low light on an uncooperative moving target who is snaking through cover/concealment when not actively trying to shoot you in the face. Smurf changes PDQ.

[shane45]

In my opinion, yes it can be done. I think muscle memory is key. I admit in recent years I have slacked off from this drill but I used to pic a target, close my eyes, present, then open my eyes and see how off I was. I would do this a lot from all manner of angles. Back in the late 90's I was shooting IPSC. An open class Para in .45. The round counts per stage were pretty high back then. Buzzer went off. Brought up my pistol, never turned on the big honking dot! Ran the entire stage on muscle memory and had no misses for the stage. IIRC the stage was thankfully devoid of any far shots as I think this is where it would get difficult fast to pull that off.

[Rosco Benson]

The level of precision needed will dictate the acceptable sight picture (as well as the level of finesse on the trigger).

It can vary from a razor sharp focus on the front sight to simply looking over the slide.

Rosco

[John Hearne]

One of the greatest paradoxes in shooting is that GOOD sighted shooters - those you use the sights quickly - are hugely dependent on a highly developed kinesthetic index to prealign the weapon for quick sight reference. At the same time, "point shooters" rely heavily on visual information to make their hits. I've often said that the best "survival index" that exists is to pick a point on a wall and then close your eyes and draw to it. If the gun is prealigned with your eyes closed, it will certainly be on target with your eyes open.

As already noted, there is a huge difference between delivering hits on a billboard size, stationary target and one with reasonable hit zones that is moving. Several years ago I taught an eight-hour pistol block for my folks. We started really slow and the expectation was to use the sights for every shot and work towards a fist sized group. The target used was an IALEFI variant with an 8" and 10" circle high in the chest. One guy wasn't shooting groups like everyone else and when queried, he stated that he wasn't using his sights since he "didn't need to." I explained to him that his method wouldn't work once the targets started to move later in the day. I don't offer multiple corrections to people not interesting in hearing them so I left him alone. When we got back, the targets were mounted on Action Target Wobblers and they didn't stay still the rest of the day. Literally, everyone else was able to keep their hits in the 10" circle except for this guy.

Moving targets and anatomically correct hit zones are the bane of point shooters and others who eschew the sights. As Jeff Cooper said "Worship your front sight."

[KevinB]

yes...




I use a DOT

Nothing pertinent to note that F2S or John did not mention - I skipped Darryl's post

[Surf]

I agree with Mr. Hearne's statement. I do teach kinesthetic body alignment to put a shooter very close if not dead center on target (situation dependent of course) whereas sight / slide alignment and sight picture is very close to being dead on target and much more quickly confirmed. Even in force on force situations, in a fluid and dynamic situation, trained body alignment which leads to extremely quick sight acquisition is highly effective. As mentioned this is not as what I define as true point shooting, in which I do not advocate.

I like to say "see what you need to see, to get the hits that you need to get". Shooter skill, distance to target, acceptable hit zone size and the situation presented will all be factors. Of course training and experience can be a key factor here in achieving the highest level of results, but that goes for any skilled task. I will note that many techniques can get even a below average shooter into a highly acceptable range.

I also teach a front sight focus even during extremely rapid strings of fire from static to dynamic situations. I have several drills / methods in which we get shooters to use body alignment, recoil management, trigger control in a rhythmic concert to getting extreme levels of accuracy at amazing speeds. This goes not just for static situations but dynamic force on force scenario's. I am convinced that a properly trained shooter can deal effectively with the bodies threat response and even counter or greatly diminish the negative physiological effects via proper training and repetition. I teach this heavily to mostly medium and advanced level shooters as that is who I have mostly dealt with in my professional teaching career.

However within the past 3 months I was hijacked, err recruited to provide training (2 day weapon / holster transition course) to your average street cop which is completely outside of my normal assignment. Of course I did not settle for providing a simple familiarization course but pushed to provide high quality training. I was always curious on how these techniques might work in a wide range of skill levels. I worked out some of my most effective training methodology / drills in what I consider a correct learning / training progression into a 2 day course to fit any level of shooter. This was no easy task and was tweaked along the way as we started gauging results. Being on the range 5 days a week is brutal especially in the heat but we are about 400 Officers trained at this point and are seeing amazing results even from those who started on the low end of the shooting skill spectrum. Also on the plus side, myself and especially my 2 instructors are seeing huge jumps in our own personal skill levels.

Pretty much this past 3 or so months and roughly 400 odd officers has been a huge validation of the techniques / drills / correct progression, in not just medium to advanced level shooters, but how they can be used from a pure novice to beginner level shooters. Myself and 2 of my staff that I recruited for this task were all pretty upset initially over this assignment. Looking at it now, I have gained a ton of information that I could not have gotten from 10 years of dealing with higher level shooters. Also seeing the skill level of the guys / gals on the street go through the roof is pure satisfaction. Most never understood the concepts of true combative shooting and the mindset to go with it. Also on the plus side is that I have been able to give my 2 instructors more personalized attention than anyone I have ever worked with in the past. They will quickly hand me my lunch if I don't keep pushing myself also. I have done a lot in my nearly 25 years but this has been an extremely rewarding time in my career, especially as my career draws close to retirement and the next phase begins.