Freestyle shooting at 25 yds revisited

[45dotACP]

Threw down a quick 5 shot group...45/50 on the local ranges B16 which is better than my usual on a B16. Not sure how the rings compare to a B8. The glock is stock except for the RDS, which is now zeroed. I've shot better groups with it, but this was just allowing the trigger to reset during recoil and pressing the shot once the dot settled.

These red dots are pretty cool and I'm impressed. May need to start working up a Roland or VooDoo special...

And 1911...Well because 1911s are awesome.

[SC_Dave]

Week 2 of my Gabe White Class train-up. I wasted the first 150 rounds last week shooting like crap. Through some dry practice this weekend I remembered how to hold the gun and press the trigger. 50 rounds today confirmed I'd gotten it sorted. Last 10 of the day at 25 into a 4" group with a score of 97:

Ash, what would you say gave you the greatest improvement of all of the things you worked on?
Thanks!

[ASH556]

Ash, what would you say gave you the greatest improvement of all of the things you worked on?
Thanks!

Dave,
for me personally I would have to say it was achieving a firm, yet neutral grip. Neutral meaning that neither hand is exerting forces on the pistol that have to be countered by the other hand. If you don't achieve this, then even minute changes in grip pressure will have massive implications at 25 yds and beyond. Conversely, you can get away with and/or not notice these effects at closer ranges.

The second most important thing for me is visual focus. 100% perfect equal height, equal light and then a strong, sharp front sight focus when working the trigger. If I get slack on this, my longer range accuracy goes to hell.

I know a lot of folks who would say that trigger control is the most important aspect of successful pistol shooting and, while I don't disagree, I guess maybe I had that ingrained in me from the get go. I could dry fire a DA revolver balancing a quarter on the front sight six times without dropping it long before I could shoot groups like the above at 25 yards. That's not to say I don't still make sure I work the trigger correctly, but that it's not the most important thing for me personally to focus on based on my experiences at this point in time.

I hope this is helpful and please don't hesitate to ask any additional questions; this is a learning place.

[rjohnson4405]

...for me personally I would have to say it was achieving a firm, yet neutral grip....

So, if you're shooting a 5 yard bill drill your grip is different than a 25 yard group? I've heard a lot of grip the pistol as hard as you can for any shot, but I've also heard of some people adjusting grip based on the type of shot they need to take. Close range, fast follow-up gets a hard as possible grip, 25 yard, un-timed, group shooting a firm but neutral grip is used.

[ASH556]

So, if you're shooting a 5 yard bill drill your grip is different than a 25 yard group? I've heard a lot of grip the pistol as hard as you can for any shot, but I've also heard of some people adjusting grip based on the type of shot they need to take. Close range, fast follow-up gets a hard as possible grip, 25 yard, un-timed, group shooting a firm but neutral grip is used.

I do not intentionally change grips for any shot. My intention is to use the same grip to shoot the Bill Drill as I use for 25yd or further. Good shooting is about consistency. I think intentionally changing things is asking for trouble. The more things you change, the harder they are to replicate, especially under pressure.

I suppose to explain further what you have quoted above, for my specific situation, I found that rolling my support hand forward ala Vogel was great for controlling recoil, but I also found that my support hand pointer finger exerted lateral pressure on the bottom of the trigger guard. The harder my support hand squeezed, the more left my shots went. This was not very apparent inside 10 yards, but at 25 and beyond, it really started to show up. Once I rolled my support hand a little more vertical, I found more success in achieving a neutral grip. As far as a Bill Drill goes, I shot 2 of them for score this weekend at Gabe's class. My times were 2:56 and 2:60 if I recall correctly (just outside Light Pin level). That's from 3 o'clock IWB concealment and my best draw is about 1.5 sec from there, so if you take the draw out of the overall time, that puts me at about .20 splits and good hits. The point being that I manage to shoot accurately at speed while still using the same grip that gives me success at 25yd accuracy.

[taadski]

Dave,
for me personally I would have to say it was achieving a firm, yet neutral grip. Neutral meaning that neither hand is exerting forces on the pistol that have to be countered by the other hand. If you don't achieve this, then even minute changes in grip pressure will have massive implications at 25 yds and beyond. Conversely, you can get away with and/or not notice these effects at closer ranges.

The second most important thing for me is visual focus. 100% perfect equal height, equal light and then a strong, sharp front sight focus when working the trigger. If I get slack on this, my longer range accuracy goes to hell.

I know a lot of folks who would say that trigger control is the most important aspect of successful pistol shooting and, while I don't disagree, I guess maybe I had that ingrained in me from the get go. I could dry fire a DA revolver balancing a quarter on the front sight six times without dropping it long before I could shoot groups like the above at 25 yards. That's not to say I don't still make sure I work the trigger correctly, but that it's not the most important thing for me personally to focus on based on my experiences at this point in time.

I hope this is helpful and please don't hesitate to ask any additional questions; this is a learning place.

Lots o cents in that post. 💰

[JHC]

I reckon I'll put this hear too. I just got this SA, LB Operator to hold me over while Dave Sams does his voodoo on my 9mm Combat Operator. This was the first 5 freestyle of the 150 aggregate at 25 yards this morning. GECO 230 gr ball. It shoots the dot so I had a folded 3x5 in the upper third of the bull to give me a consistent aiming point.

I don't know that I've ever shot a better 25 yard group, rested or offhand.

Attachment 15631

[SC_Dave]

I reckon I'll put this hear too. I just got this SA, LB Operator to hold me over while Dave Sams does his voodoo on my 9mm Combat Operator. This was the first 5 freestyle of the 150 aggregate at 25 yards this morning. GECO 230 gr ball. It shoots the dot so I had a folded 3x5 in the upper third of the bull to give me a consistent aiming point.

I don't know that I've ever shot a better 25 yard group, rested or offhand.

Attachment 15631

So you shot this freestyle at 25 yds? That's incredible! I know my pistol is capable of better accuracy than I am, but I'm not sure I'll ever get here. Good work.
SCD

[Luke]

@JHC that is absolutely incredible. Very fine showing of skill sir.

[JHC]

@JHC that is absolutely incredible. Very fine showing of skill sir.

Thanks. We have Glock groups here like that. THAT is another dimension of precision.