One more comment, reference the discussion about what part of the trigger to use. I am now a lot more interested in how the trigger press finishes than starts, with the objective to "finish flat," as Ron Avery says.
As a general rule, based on my personal experience, if shooting poor groups with a Sig, Beretta or Glock I would suspect the shooter. With an M&P 9, I would suspect the pistol. Others may have different experiences.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
I have another thread open about the trigger finger placement issue for support hand only shooting. It is a journey I don't want to take, but my training and match performance has shown the explicit need to develop my technique there. It is weird going back to square one and having to figure out the ergonomics of a different interface.
That said, neither of my M&Ps seem to have had accuracy issues since I squared myself away (I blamed my first M&P 9 for almost a year before I knew what I was doing it seems) and now either will hold the aiming black on the 25 yard line with a POA=POI hold. I haven't ever tried a six o'clock or sub-six hold to wring more accuracy out, though I want to try it on the 50 yard line as I have trouble holding an 8.5x11" sheet of paper there (I think it is a vision/focus issue).
Outrunning my headlights since '81.
I just went into the range and shot three 5-shot groups on 3x5 cards at 25 yds offhand. The lighting totally sucks and when I shift my focus from the target to the front sight, I can no longer tell where I'm holding. I think that may account for some of the "patterns." The white 3x5 is easier to make out than the B-8, though.
Nothing wrong with those groups, bud. Nice shooting.
It may have been discussed earlier in the thread, but not being able to tell where you are holding is a big deal. I know exactly what you're talking about. Welcome to my world of diminishing vision. I haven't been able to get a clear front sight picture in years.
I do okay in bright light at the 25 yard line, but at my usual shooting spot (indoor range) the lighting is dismal, and even with the huge dots on the HK45C/P30 sights, I'm having trouble holding a group at 25 in there. With 70% (or more) of lethal force encounters occurring in dim light… well, you get the idea.
I'm retired now, which means I no longer "go to the sound of the guns", and if I have to present and shoot these days odds are more along the lines of 95% that it will be close-in. But if you're like me, you're an anomaly magnet… we just might be faced with that across-the-parking-lot precision shot after all.
I have faced the fact that regardless of how high-speed/low-drag the latest sight rage may be, they just don't work for me anymore. The slide-mounted red dot sight is a solution, but that has its own set of issues, as discussed elsewhere on this forum. I've been playing around with the concept (and three pistols so modified) for a few years now, with varying degrees of success. Bottom line is, I simply don't trust it. Batteries fail, heavy rain causes diffraction, failure to get a good index during the initial stages of a presentation can cause felony "dot-hunting", etc., etc. But its starting to look like I'm gonna have to trust it. I found myself hunting the front sight this morning- again. The gun was lined up properly, it was there; I just couldn't SEE the damn thing.
I'll tell you this; for distance shots or precise close shots, the red dot sight is cheating. No other way around it. You'll be amazed at what you can do with one.
But back to your targets… as long as you're not trying a head shot, I don't see anything about your groups to be really worried about… IMO, of course.
.
I'm going to be doing some accuracy testing tomorrow:
Note the two types of Freedom Munitions - Remanufactured and New. I'll be interested in seeing which one patterns better.
And the blasters in question:
M&P fullsize 9mm with Heinie Straight 8 ledge sights, APEX DCAEK, RAM, Extractor and AEK Polymer Trigger.
Newly purchased Gen4 Glock 19 with Ameriglo green/green CAP sights and Grip Plug.
If not me, then who?
What year production is your mp?
I've not found that the Freedom ball ammo patterns well past 15yd, be it reman or new. That's with 115 and 124, never bought 147. The difference is more a matter of reliability, the level of incidence of having a primer take 2 or more attempts to light off goes up with the reman, though I've yet to have it be more than 3/case of reman.
I just had a new-new stock barrel (1:10) put into Thing2 (2012 M&P9, 10/8 sights, front painted flour orange), and checked for a tight fit. Hit the range to see what it could do and adjust sights, all of which included Speer GDHP124gr+P, Hotshot Elite 124gr ball, Blazer Brass 124gr ball, and Freedom 124gr ball. Freedom was used to get the sights roughed in @10yd, strictly because that stuff prints like smashed ass. I usually don't bring a buncha different ammos unless I'm trying to nail down where a gun's printing and which it prints best that most closely matches how it prints with what I carry.
FredM ambled in to the range as I was finishing up (and proceeded to positively burn the range down, BTW...), saw the target with which I finished up, which was a 25yd grouping with the last 12 rounds I had, Blazer Brass. The gun did fine, outside of user-headspacing. I put 3 rounds out of the bull, none by more than .5". ASH, I'm with you in terms of ability to establish one's hold, I'm still inconsistent enough that I'm still not sure if I do better using a smaller specific aimpoint, or if I do better with a larger well-contrasted field where I find the center on my own....
It's a small matter, but sometimes printing stuff one'd usually print to letter-size paper (say, a B8) to legal-size can help, especially if one has to lollipop. Whether it's a solid black front sight tip or one painted orange, that little extra bit of white appearing between the blade and the bull can provide a better indicator in crappier lighting.
2011Originally Posted by breakingtime91
On a good day I've hit ~3" at 25 using GDHP
If not me, then who?
Interesting.
I don't expect much from it, but given the cost it's hard to pass up as range ammo.
edit: hopefully it will at least be consistent against itself. I bought it primary to see which gun prefers which weight of ammo.
If not me, then who?
Very interested in your results.
This is pretty much my first post here. Joined a while ago and have been reading a lot of great threads, absorbing the info and soaking up advice.
I'm a noob shooter and bought my first pistol, an M&P FS 9mm in November last year. I had a set of Trijicon HD yellows, and an Apex DCAEK and poly trigger put in at my LGS. I try and go to the range once a month or when my work schedule allows (I'm in Aerospace Project Management and travel a lot). Every few days I try and dry fire against a wall for ten minutes in the evenings. I've been shooting Freedom Munitions 124gr new FMJ RN lately.
I got a few B8 targets and made an attempt at 25 yards last month. I shot two handed, and tried to apply what I learned here. If I understand scoring a B8 correctly, I got a 37-0X. Basically hopeless, but lot of room for improvement.
My issues are always low and right (I'm a lefty). I'm pretty sure it's me, not the gun. My wife shoots it low and left (she's a righty).
I think this is a great forum. Usually I feel so intimidated by all the expertise, I don't want to ask dumb questions, let alone start a thread. I just thought I had something in common with this post, so I thought I'd say hi.
With that, I'll go back to lurk mode. Thanks to all who post here, it is a very informative thread.
Rich in Tampa
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