Reverse Horseshoe Grip inducing slide stop malfunctions on Glocks

[High Cross]

Hi All, back in September 2023 I finished Gunsite 250 and did well enough (second on school drill and tied for 3rd on man on man). I kept in touch with my classmates and found all who shot expert universally used a reverse horseshoe style of grip. I have been experimenting and find I am very dialed in but every once in a while on both a Glock 17 and a Glock 43 it causes me to push the slide stop up with the meaty part of my support hand thumb joint catching the slide and causing a malfunction. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if they have any advice. I am linking a video of the gripping technique I am using for clarity
https://youtu.be/cgsJjANVIEQ?si=GgvdqUuZTAHDGn4P

[Clusterfrack]

Hi All, back in September 2023 I finished Gunsite 250 and did well enough (second on school drill and tied for 3rd on man on man). I kept in touch with my classmates and found all who shot expert universally used a reverse horseshoe style of grip. I haves been experimenting and find I am very dialed in but every once in a while on both a Glock 17 and a Glock 43 it causes me to push the slide stop up with the meaty part of my support hand thumb joint catching the slide and causing a malfunction. I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this and if they have any advice. I am linking a video of the gripping technique I am using for clarity
https://youtu.be/cgsJjANVIEQ?si=GgvdqUuZTAHDGn4P

I tried the Vogel grip and do not like it. Given that 13 year old girls can make legit GM*, there isn't any good reason to add tension at the elbows (and shoulders) to keep the gun from slipping inside the grip. Pretty much all adult males can do this easily. More important is keeping the wrists locked.

There's a lot of confusion about gripping hard and locking the wrist. They aren't related, but get treated as if they are.

EDIT: It's a good clue that most of the top USPSA shooters don't grip this way.

Looking forward to the discussion!

---
* (as opposed to making GM by cooking the books on classifiers like certain people on YouTube)

[JRV]

It takes minimal effort to shoot and control a pistol athletically. There’s absolutely zero need to flare the elbows and introduce a bunch of isometric tension and torque (and get tendinitis) just to fight a little recoil. The support hand grip doesn’t have to be super high or anything. It just has to be tight on the gun and exerting only enough pressure needed to get consistent and predictable return of the sights.

Is that what Gunsite’s teaching nowadays—muscle the gun?

[High Cross]

It takes minimal effort to shoot and control a pistol athletically. There’s absolutely zero need to flare the elbows and introduce a bunch of isometric tension and torque (and get tendinitis) just to fight a little recoil. The support hand grip doesn’t have to be super high or anything. It just has to be tight on the gun and exerting only enough pressure needed to get consistent and predictable return of the sights.

Is that what Gunsite’s teaching nowadays—muscle the gun?

Gunsite was not teaching the Vogel grip. They taught two we were given an option of. One was an isosceles where you use a crush grip and lock everything down. The same way Mike Seeklander teaches. The other was the modern weaver which looks like a Modern Isosceles but the support side elbow is down and you use a push pull. I used the Iso they taught. However every single person in my class who shot an expert rating used the Vogel style grip which Gunsite did not teach.

[JRV]

What does “lock everything down” mean? Straight elbows? I’m not tracking what needs to be locked other than firm wrists.

[Clusterfrack]

What does “lock everything down” mean? Straight elbows? I’m not tracking what needs to be locked other than firm wrists.

Great point. I posted this in another thread, but can't remember where:

Crush Grip
There are a lot of people who don't really know why what they do works, and some of these people are very accomplished shooters. After spending serious time down Hwansik Kim's rabbit hole, I think there is:

1) Confusion between gripping hard and locking the wrist. It is not obvious that these can be done independently unless you work on it.

2) Confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart.

3) Confusion between how everyone needs to grip guns, and how a particular gun fits one person's hand.

[High Cross]

What does “lock everything down” mean? Straight elbows? I’m not tracking what needs to be locked other than firm wrists.

No, pretend you have a walnut between your two heels of your hands on the back strap of the pistol and were trying to crush it.
https://youtu.be/Ue1l1qz-U4M?si=J_R1hflu1bMj0UYP

[High Cross]

Great point. I posted this in another thread, but can't remember where:

This is very interesting. Thank you

[UNM1136]

If your grip is causing you intermittent malfunctions, your grip is either inconsistent, or the problem intermittently. Are there any other explanations?

I bought a Mantis X and analyzing my trigger presses learned my grip and press wasn't as consistent as I thought it was. I have long used the wedge grip, along with the DB Glock grip. My first FTU LT had the mantra "don't let your equipment defeat you". A more reasoned way of putting it over two decades later is "know your equipment well enough it won't have a role in your defeat".

I remember Todd G teaching a sorta reverse horseshoe grip in AFHF a little over a decade ago. Todd was fast, and accurate. It didn't work for me. At all.

I have big hands, and if I didn't pay attention and internalize my grip my duty Sig would not lock open, and my current G17.4 would either lock open early or not at all.

Welcome to PF.. @Clusterfrack, among others, is someone I have a lot of time to listen to.

In firearms training there have been revolutionary changes and evolutionary changes. There is a lot of Not-Invented-Here syndrome, and, based on observations, a WHOLE LOT of sacred cows that need to be slaughtered.

The Modern Technique was modern 30-50 years ago. We owe the Good Colonel a debt for advancing things. And based on his personality he may not have been able to do the update without a lot of work.

A lot of shooters here are putting in the work today. With today's realities, to drive this craft forward.

I am up past my bedtime. See you later.

pat

[High Cross]

If your grip is causing you intermittent malfunctions, your grip is either inconsistent, or the problem intermittently. Are there any other explanations?

I bought a Mantis X and analyzing my trigger presses learned my grip and press wasn't as consistent as I thought it was. I have long used the wedge grip, along with the DB Glock grip. My first FTU LT had the mantra "don't let your equipment defeat you". A more reasoned way of putting it over two decades later is "know your equipment well enough it won't have a role in your defeat".

I remember Todd G teaching a sorta reverse horseshoe grip in AFHF a little over a decade ago. Todd was fast, and accurate. It didn't work for me. At all.

I have big hands, and if I didn't pay attention and internalize my grip my duty Sig would not lock open, and my current G17.4 would either lock open early or not at all.

Welcome to PF.. @Clusterfrack, among others, is someone I have a lot of time to listen to.

In firearms training there have been revolutionary changes and evolutionary changes. There is a lot of Not-Invented-Here syndrome, and, based on observations, a WHOLE LOT of sacred cows that need to be slaughtered.

The Modern Technique was modern 30-50 years ago. We owe the Good Colonel a debt for advancing things. And based on his personality he may not have been able to do the update without a lot of work.

A lot of shooters here are putting in the work today. With today's realities, to drive this craft forward.

I am up past my bedtime. See you later.

pat

That bit about it only happening intermittently meaning my grip is inconsistent is a great observation. Thank you very much for that. I have the same problem with g17 locking open prematurely with this grip and I have larger sized hands. Great observations.