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Thread: AIWB (Appendix Carry)

  1. #31
    We are diminished
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    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Malchira View Post
    - If one had to draw from AIWB in close proximity to a threat, it seems like the position would make it easier for the "opponent" to smother/stall the draw, because it's happening right in front of them. With a more traditional belt carry, your body is between the draw and the threat.
    Drawing from the appendix position is faster, uses smaller movements, and requires less overall movement. These things all add to its suitability in tight quarters.

    - If a close threat has already presented itself, an AIWB draw has effectively zero chance of being performed surreptitiously.
    That's absolutely false. When combined with the improved speed of an AIWB draw, the ability to have your hands practically on top of the gun in a normal relaxed position (as opposed to reaching/sweeping behind your hip) makes for a very stealthy draw... and one that doesn't rely on the BG demanding your wallet before you can begin.

    - In a ground-fighting situation, the argument has been made that AIWB prevents the gun from being trapped between your body and the ground. While true, it creates the new problem of trapping it between your body and your opponent's. I haven't tested it, but it seems it would be easier to raise/rock yourself far enough to clear a belt holster than to get your hand between two bodies. Once you had a grip, I think it would be easier to draw from a non-AIWB, and the resulting "start position" of the gun would be more advantageous.
    I think this is too situational to call an advantage or disadvantage for any given system. Hopefully Southnarc can chime in on this issue when he gets a chance...

  2. #32
    Personally I haven't witnessed any significant advantage or disadvantage to A-IWB at ECQ ranges. It's just another way to carry a gun inside your pants. I think the advantages become more noticeable when the range opens up to "conventional" gunfight distances. I also think A-IWB has an advantage in confined spaces such as the driver's compartment of a small car.

    The issues of where a gun is carried is not really pertinent in an entangled affair. Watch these evolutions and tell me if you think that ANY particular place on the body holds a distinct advantage over any other.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprLkelgB3M

    http://www.youtube.com/user/soonerbjj#p/u/7/RTBk3rTjuNU

    http://www.youtube.com/user/soonerbjj#p/u/3/zUrzzqAuf-o

    The only thing I will say about holsters and placement for entangled shooting problems is that it seems pretty consistent that a leather IWB (regardless of where it's carried on the body) seems to offer better retention advantages. The gun tends to "bind" a bit more than kydex when it's torqued in the holster. This mirrors my own experiences when jumping fences and rolling around with crack dealers.

    Just my opinion though. Nothing absolute.

  3. #33

    Mid-Ground.

    There may also be an acceptable mid-ground for those that need or want to carry AIWB and those who are rightfully freaked out a bit every time they reholster AIWB. I'm a firm believer, provided closed front shirts (vs jackets or having to be tucked in) are acceptable, that AIWB is probably the best way to carry a concealed pistol. I'm equally convinced that it's the worst place to reholster a pistol.

    I'm devoted to the Glock for almost all of my pistol needs and, while I did it for a year or so, I'm simply not willing to get out on the range and practice drawing/reholstering AIWB extensively with the Glock. Were I carrying a P228 or P30 with a hammer, I'd be much more comfortable practicing from AIWB.

    So my dilemma is that I think AIWB if a great place to carry and a horrible place to reholster. I'll make the assumption that most of us are carrying pistols to save our lives or the lives of others. If the basic mode of carry puts you at undue risk of killing yourself while reholstering, you need to step back and remember that you are carrying a pistol to potentially save your life---not to potentially take it. I abandoned AIWB for this very reason but this also prevented me from carrying a full sized pistol a lot of time since it might cause undue work issues.

    As an aside, a "non-permissive" environment is not an office or work environment were you'll get fired if caught carrying; "non-permissive" environments are Mexico City, Pakistan, undercover work, and, to a lesser extent, DC/NJ/etc. Getting fired sucks but getting thrown in a Paki prison is potentially life ending as is, to a much lesser extent, getting thrown in a US prison. In these situations where simply getting caught with a gun might get you arrested or even killed, the advantages of AIWB seem to outweigh the risks. Fortunately, most of us aren't faced with truly "non-permissive" environments.

    The solution I've found to mitigate most all of the risk of AIWB is simply to do my repetitive training from a standard hip carried IWB holster while carry AIWB when necessary. The location between 1 o'clock carry and 4 o'clock carry is so close that it doesn't seem to pose any issues of "where's my gun" today. It's really no different than wearing an open front jacket one day and an untucked shirt the next or carry concealed and then switching to a tactical holster. This solution lets you enjoy the many benefits of AIWB carry while minimizing the potentially deadly risks. Any draw/reholster work can be done with an empty weapon or a blue gun.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Personally I haven't witnessed any significant advantage or disadvantage to A-IWB at ECQ ranges... I also think A-IWB has an advantage in confined spaces such as the driver's compartment of a small car."

    Can you elaborate on this a tiny bit? I'm a little confused. Also, why do you think there is an advantage at more "normal" shooting distances? (paraphrased)


    "The only thing I will say about holsters and placement for entangled shooting problems is that it seems pretty consistent that a leather IWB (regardless of where it's carried on the body) seems to offer better retention advantages. The gun tends to "bind" a bit more than kydex when it's torqued in the holster."

    +1!

    It's been a real struggle to get a good leather AIWB to market, but it seems that is changing. I will say that I had a miserable experience with a very well known, very expensive standard IWB (leather) a few years ago, and will not use a holster from them again. I also have serious reservations about holsters with metal lined mouths (for just the opposite reason often given). Mine would loosen with use and not retain the gun.

    Finally, my personal Shaggy seems to have a very leather like level of tension on the gun, but I still worry about kydex over leather. Nothing's perfect...

  5. #35
    "The solution I've found to mitigate most all of the risk of AIWB is simply to do my repetitive training from a standard hip carried IWB holster while carry AIWB when necessary. The location between 1 o'clock carry and 4 o'clock carry is so close that it doesn't seem to pose any issues of "where's my gun" today. It's really no different than wearing an open front jacket one day and an untucked shirt the next or carry concealed and then switching to a tactical holster. This solution lets you enjoy the many benefits of AIWB carry while minimizing the potentially deadly risks. Any draw/reholster work can be done with an empty weapon or a blue gun.
    Dave,

    I would disagree a little, in that if AIWB is too unsafe to practice reholstering on the range, then reholstering after an adrenaline dump would seem to be a no go. Winning a confrontation (shots fired or not), and then castrating yourself would be poor form, no?

  6. #36
    I may not have phrased that very well so I'll try and elaborate some more.

    In the entangled shooting problems the key issue is the shooter's position himself not necessarily where the gun is produced from. The collision of torsos and limbs is so dynamic amd volitional that within a split second what was a damn good place for the gun to be for you is now the worst place for you to have to defend it.

    Outside of entanglement problems, I think generally the gun in vasectomy carry is usually closer to the hand and centerline of the body thus quicker to produce to target relative to a linear drawstroke.

    In the confined space problem especially like the bucket seats of some vehicles there's usually less movement required to access the pistol, such as leaning forward or shifting your hips as much.

    Did that help some or did I just repeat myself?

  7. #37
    That's very clear, thanks. It also mirrors my own experience.

  8. #38
    Cool!

  9. #39
    It's a good method, it is definitely faster than from behind the hip. I've had such good luck with it that I've pulled my duty holster around in front of my hip to between 2-2:30. I carry an MP40 with a TLR1 light in a 6285 holster and I found that the gun was binding up in the holster. This small movement of the holster solved the problem.

  10. #40
    SLG,
    I agree 100% but I am simply going by the raw number of times that I'd reholster into an AIWB holster. You may draw and reholster 100 times during a practice session whereas you would conceivably only reholster once after a confrontation. Simply knowing myself and my absent mindedness, I am much more likely to make a mistake on repetition 87 on the range than on the first reholster after a fight. It’s like zoning out during daily driving but not while you are ultra focused during TVOC. The adrenaline dump is a very real concern but almost every time that I've drawn my pistol for real, in my prior occupation, I was very slow to reholster it (compared to extended range sessions).

    I'm simply going by the law of probability and I currently only carry AIWB when that extra level of concealment is needed. I think almost all of the draw/reholster work can be accomplished via dry fire.

    Do you see this as being different from going from daily concealment to an exposed drop holster for tactical work?

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