Top Ten Reasons to Shoot IDPA, from Handguns 2010

[Mr_White]

I'm guessing that club falls under the area of the former Area Director that was responsible for the no video policy.

Not sure, and I'm also not sure whether this was a club rule or if it came from the AD or what.

[jetfire]

The AD for that region gets all of Washington, Oregon, and Alaska. The former AD anyway had a way of instilling his own personal idea of what IDPA should be like, regardless of the directives of HQ.

[cclaxton]

THere is no IDPA rule...that would have to be a club rule. The only IDPA rule is that video review shall not be considered for appeal to the Match Director. (Don't agree with it. I need to propose this change.) I would say that video replay can be used by the Match Director at his discretion to make a ruling.
Cody

[LSP972]

None other than the great Jerry Miculek said: "Be the first one on the range and the last one to leave."

I am personally acquainted with Jerry Miculek; I was shooting against him in pseudo-IPSC events in Louisiana when he was just getting started, in the late 70s-early 80s.

I feel reasonably certain he would agree with me… if you don't really have a clue about what you're doing when you go to a match, that match experience is not going to magically impart skills.

Again (and for the last time)… yes, match experience can be useful… usually is. But it is NOT going to teach one basic fundamentals such as sight alignment/trigger control/manipulative skills. That's what it seemed to me you were saying in part of your OP; to wit, a total nimrod is going to be a better technical shooter just by participating in a match. Uh… no.

If that is not what you were trying to say, then a pox on me. Whatever.

.

[cclaxton]

I feel reasonably certain he would agree with me… if you don't really have a clue about what you're doing when you go to a match, that match experience is not going to magically impart skills.

I agree.

Again (and for the last time)… yes, match experience can be useful… usually is. But it is NOT going to teach one basic fundamentals such as sight alignment/trigger control/manipulative skills. That's what it seemed to me you were saying in part of your OP; to wit, a total nimrod is going to be a better technical shooter just by participating in a match. Uh… no. If that is not what you were trying to say, then a pox on me. Whatever.

1. Everyone should be taught safety rules. 2. I said in my OP that:

The basics of shooting should be taught to people who are new to shooting.

3. From that point forward it really depends on the individual. I have seen some people who have a natural talent and learn quickly and get a lot of value out of shooting matches because they focus and pay attention and work at it. I have seen others that don't have the natural talent who have taken multiple multi-day classes and their progress is slow. (Also, let's not forget the role of the mental aspects of competing and performance, which can be a significant factor).

I really think we can't generalize and turn this into a simple formula that works for everyone. Sure, there are some people that need training to get them to learn something new. But at some point it comes down to each person figuring out what works for them, and then taking responsibility to work at it, practice, take notes, make adjustments, measure performance, use par times to increase speed, etc. AND, shooting matches with challenging COF so that you can measure where you are and analyze match performance and LEARN FROM IT. If you notice you have a problem getting Zero-Down on the long distance targets, then need to practice that...if you notice you miss moving targets, then have to practice that, etc. Those are all opportunities to learn where to improve.
Cody

[BaiHu]

Cody,

I appreciate your enthusiasm to evangelize IDPA or competition in general, but sometimes your thoughts vacillate b/w generalizations and specific truths for you/I/Cody. Other times they just show inconsistent or incompatible thoughts for me and it seems like I'm not the only one given gtmtnbiker and PPGMD's thoughts.

I need a color key to keep these thoughts organized for me.

There is a difference between teaching and learning. Learning can happen without teaching through the process of doing. You naturally learn what works and doesn't work when you shoot competitively on the clock. Now learning does require each individual actually applying themselves to learn. But people who are not really interested in applying themselves aren't going to do well with a teacher either.......

I am a big supporter of training, but it is not the only way to learn. And in the end it comes down to each individual's commitment to a practice schedule and working on their own areas needing improvement. ..........I don't need a $75/hour trainer coaching me while I practice things I already know to improve. If I won the lottery and had plenty of time I would probably spend 4 hours a day with a top coach/trainer, but that is not reality for me, and not reality for most of us.

But the main point is this: Shooting IDPA matches is what gives me the feedback on how much I am improving, or not. .....

We all agree there is a difference b/w teaching and learning. Learning happens from someone teaching you what is right vs wrong, successful vs unsuccessful.

Learning doesn't always happen by doing. Practicing happens by doing, but that doesn't mean you're learning correctly. This leads me to the adage that only perfect practice makes perfect. Leaving out the adjective leads to plateauing at best.

You may naturally learn what works and doesn't work on a clock, but maybe you're gifted. I for one know that I've been 'satisfied' in the past, b/c I was better than I was the week before, but without taking a class, seeing a better way or seeing someone perform better, I didn't know I could get 'there' b/c I didn't know a) that there was a 'there' and b) have the map, tools, drills, tests, know-how in order to get 'there'. Sure, going to an IDPA/USPSA may show me the top of the Himalayas, but it doesn't give me the climbing experience, strength, technique, equipment, etc to actually stand on the peak and shout 'I'm the king of the world!'. Your post comes off as 'visualizing' will get you there, but that's only half of what I think you mean. Going to an IDPA/USPSA match each month is like me looking at climbers going up the Himalayas and then aping their gestures at the base of the Himalayas every year hoping I get somewhere and don't die or kill others in the process.

Actually applying oneself often requires a teacher. There is a reason why people spend $100/hr for someone to teach you how to push a weight up and down and count to ten for you (not trying to mock personal trainers here) and it isn't for the obvious reasons just stated. Not all people have the mental energy to motivate themselves after they've been motivating themselves or people/employees all day at their job. Having a trainer is often a method of self-blackmail. I'm paying money to have this guy help me, I better invest this time/money wisely and make progress. It's a way of leveraging your lack of time/energy/motivation by leveraging your dollar. Sometimes it's cheaper to spend money on a trainer and 100 rounds that show improvement rather than spending 500 rounds downrange in the hopes that you are improving. This whole site is a testament to people who are trying to get better by dialog, exchange of ideas, drills, etc and then hopefully cataloging/reporting their changes. I don't think anyone reports match results here as learning, I think they post it as grading their practice sessions.

I did not say this. What I said is that learning can occur through shooting IDPA (if you are paying attention and make note of where you need improvement, and work on that.). Sure, a day with Hackathorn or Langdon would be better. But only if I go home and practice and apply what I have learned. Same thing with IDPA.
Cody

Learning if you are paying attention is quite a loaded statement and it is very difficult to do if you're just trying to make sure you're not shooting yourself or others on a COF. If I had the time, I'd rather take 4 private lessons a year than hit 12 competitions a year (about the same amount of time/dollar value). I enjoy the competition, b/c it challenges what I already know, but so many things are going on during a competition that I can't stop in the middle of a COF and take notes. I'm either competing in order to see where my fundamentals fall apart or I'm practicing to improve said fundamentals that are lacking. I think you use the word learning a bit different than I do. I consider a failure to execute as an indicator that I need more practice and I consider a competition or a drill as a test. The learning happens before and after a test/competition in my mind and not during.

+ 1

The match isn't the place to learn, the match is the place to execute. And unless you have video, it is hard to get really accurate takeaways from a match.

As PPGMD said above, unless I have video, an eidetic memory or a teacher/mentor attending the match with me, I'm pretty much SOL. What's worse is I could be reinforcing bad habits that have nothing to do with safety or the fact that I'm engaging in a game and not taking a tactical/defensive pistol class. I might simply be satisfied making lots of C zone hits in an effort to blaze through a COF for points; never having seen my sight lift up/down during one shot. My score looks good enough, so I must be doing something right, right? Did I learn something? Yes. How to play the game, but I didn't improve my fundamentals here.

Question for you: If you believe learning happens during a competition, then would you also believe that learning would happen during a self-defense shooting??

[Tamara]

I'll just leave this here.

[BaiHu]

I'll just leave this here.

You're a devil in blue jeans aren't ya?

ETA: Good article, btw.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Savage Hands]

Is IDPA turning into a cult now? That is how I feel when I read some of these threads.

[Trooper224]

Is IDPA turning into a cult now? That is how I feel when I read some of these threads.