My DA/SA Traditional: Ruger P89

[JonInWA]

A couple of things about Rich's and Skintop911 comments: Rich, you're absolutely correct about the first, and probably to a lesser degree, P85/P89s up to about the 304-serial number sequence regarding accuracy. The very early P85s were the worst regarding accuracy, suffering from a two-piece barrel and a not great barrel-to-slide fit. They were reliable, but not particularly accurate. Allegedly Massad Ayoob sent one of his early models to Irv Stone at Bar Sto, and was so impressed with the results that he contacted William Ruger, instigating a meeting between Ruger's engineers and Stone, presumably resulting in the "phase one" series of modifications tightening up the P85's accuracy (which I believe was the move to the one-piece barrel and an improved barrel-to-slide fit, probably centering around the barrel's relationship with the bushing area). Post 304 serial number P89's had a more drastically improved barrel-to-slide relationship, where the angle of the barrel's fit into the slide was altered to the point of where when the barrel was seated and in battery, the rear portion of the breachblock's top actually protruded above the slide plane. My understanding is that the tightness of the breacghblock's fit into it's niche in the slide is also a fairly crucial component of each individual gun's accuracy; one of the reasons that the subsequent .45 ACP chambered P90 (which was pretty much literally a P85/P89 receiver slightly reconfigured for a .45 ACP single-stack magazine, with a proportionately larger slide) has a justifiable reputation for steller accuracy is that it fortuitiously has from the onset a very tight barrel breachblock-to-slide niche fit.

Interestingly, Ruger actually had an in-house fix for inaccurate P85s, altering the "pinch" fit between barrel to slide, but relatively few of those experiencing inaccuracy with their P85s ever actually sent their P85s back to Ruger to do anything corrective about it-hmmm; a bit like today's 9mm Smith & Wesson M&Ps....but with a less demanding shooting community/aftermarket support industry at the time.

Skintop911, regarding the P-Series AS A WHOLE, I agree with you. Early P85s had a firing pin materials issue, resulting in a totally revised firing pin safety system; I personally had a law enforcement model P90 which had issues chambering/going into battery with hollow point cartridges (230 gr Federal Hydroshoks, if my memory serves me correctly-Ruger CUstomer Service QUICKLY rectified that), the P91 and first series P944s with their swinging links had long term inadequacy issues in durability due to the .40 cartridge's quick and violent pressure spiking (which led first to the early demise of the P91, and subsequently to the re-design of the P944's action, switching from a swinging link to the cam block system)(my personal P944 {a "Series One" swinging link varient} suffered from hammer follow, due to sear issues-Ruger Customer Service again quickly rectified that, replacing the sear); the P97 had some harmonic vibration issues, leading to displacement of the slide stop, inducing operational issues; the P345 was ergonomically more efficient and aesthetically more attractive than the P97 it replaced, but had some design flaws, leading to it's attenuated lifespan and replacement by the SR .45 ACP (which has shown some interesting flaws itself...), and I've never been particularly impressed with either the P95 or the SR series (to me, the SR is a sort of a cobbled-together poor man's copy of a Glock). And so on.

However, all that said, the P89 (especially post 304 serial numbered ones) and the P90s overall have been exceptional guns-grossly overdesigned for the cartridges that their chambered in. The revised ergos of the P89, and the substitution of Hogue grips (which Ruger themselves offered for several of their law enforcement skus, and commercially as an aftermarket option with the Ruger eagle molded in it) significantly aided in the handling of the pistols. The slides certainly ARE heavy, due to their over-design, but the receivers, especially with subsequent OEM factory grip modifications and/or substitutions are actually reasonably slim and easy handling, in my opinion.

I'd certainly be open to and interested in any further illumination/information you can provide based on your expereinces and information garnered from your courses.

Best, Jon

[Clay]

Great write up Jon, thanks. I had a P90 and a P95 that I bought new in 97 that I wish I had kept. I put several thousand rounds through the P95 without a single malfunction. I only ran about 500 rounds through the P90 but it was trouble free and very accurate.

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk

[cathellsk]

Jon,

I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and I'm also a firearms instructor for them. My institution uses P89DAOs. We have a few P95DAOs but never use them anymore. Since working for the BOP I've seen multiple pistols used by them...Beretta INOX 92D Vertecs, Ruger P89s, P93s, P94s, & P95s. All the Rugers were DAO. By far the most used is the P89. It depends on what institution your at what your issued.

In my 10yrs shooting the P89DAO I've formed and heard plenty of opinions on them. Most people hate them, saying they hate the DAO trigger or the ergonomics. Those of us that like them are few but vocal. Main reason is they are tanks. They just keep running with very minimal problems. The worst being the barrel links breaking and locking up the slides. They're a real bitch to break open and get the slide back to disassemble for repair. Every once in awhile a mag release will fall out but apparently you can just pop it back in from what I've seen. They are accurate too. The people that say they aren't obviously don't know how to run the trigger properly (I'm talking BOP employees here). We have about 10 or so shooters including myself that are consistently the top shooters ever year during quals. I found my own P89DAO on auctionarms a few years back that was NIB and use it to improve my skills with the work guns.

Last contract we had were for P95DAOs. But I found out they won't be leaving Glynco because of reliability issues after high round counts. We're stuck with them now but they won't issue out because of these issues. Knowing the Feds I'm sure they'll scrap them eventually. All our P89s are from the '95-'96 timeframe.

I'm a fan.

[JonInWA]

Cathellsk-Great input/actual field experience over a protracted period-Thanks! Regarding the link, I know that Ruger significantly strengthened it, but to the best of my knowledge it was only done once, fairly early in the P85's production cycle, so unless they did it again subsequent to your 95-96 guns, it may be a lurking weak point. I'll try to confirm if Ruger did strengthen the link (again) subsequent to your BOP guns; any idea as to the roundcount at which the links broke, and any feel for how many broke in your experiences with the BOP P89s?

Your reports on the P95 echoes my anecdotal feedback on them-that they're not as durable as their P85/P89 predecessors. Regarding reliability and durability, out of the P-Series lineup (and the subsequent/current SR lineup) the P89 and P90 seem to be the bar-setters.

Best, Jon

[SteveK]

I owned one of the stainless 85s after the drop safety fix. I believe they may have been marked P95II. It was a tank but devoured every factory and reload (some piss-poor) I shoved in it. I actually used it to get rid of about 1000 reloads that absolutely would not feed or function in a Beretta 92 I had at the time. Another gun I should have never gotten rid of.

[Chuck Whitlock]

In the early 90's I found a P85 MKII in a pawn shop at a good price. I stocked it with the Hogue grips and while big and clunky I don't recall any malfunctions (Cletii level round counts) before I sold/traded it.

After some of the TDA love here, and assisting a CHL instructor friend with a new shooter who had a stainless S&W 915, I thought having an exemplar on had might be a good idea. I found a used P95 DC with original box/papers that I got OTD for under 3.5 bills. Looking forward to seeing what it is capable of. My FBI buddy commented that both DA and SA pulls where smoother than his P228 (he made no comparison to his Robar NP3'd P220, however). Incidentally, the original sales receipt was in the box.....sold in 1996 in Omaha, NE, and it doesn't have the link. FWIW.

[cathellsk]

Jon,

I talked to an instructor at Glynco back in '04 when I was there. They told me the barrels on the academy guns along with a lot of small parts had been replaced over the years but that the frames and slides had multiple thousands of rounds through them. She said 400-500,000 rounds actually. I thought that was kinda high but if you consider how many rounds we fire while there and take that back 10yrs it's feasible I guess.

Doing some quick math I'm guessing we put an average of 200rds through a pistol in a day of training at the institution over the course of 8 days total of shooting a year going back to around '95-'96. That's roughly 30k rounds per pistol. That's not including special training classes we have periodically. That's why the barrel links are breaking. Our armorer bought a bunch from Brownell's and we keep them running. I'd say he's replaced the recoil springs too. We could stand to have some mag rebuild kits though or just all new mags period. But they still function right along. I rarely see any malfs.

Since the Ruger P89s the next contract was for Beretta Vertecs in the early 2000s, then Ruger P95s in the late 2000s. Since those aren't going to be issued out as I mentioned above and the Vertec and P89s aren't made anymore we need something else. Last rumor I heard was GLOCK 19s or SIG 229s. Our new Captain mentioned he heard during a conference call about a new contract being awarded for a pistol but couldn't remember what it was. I'm hoping for GLOCK 19s since it's my personal favorite.

Our SORT teams use a different mix of pistols I seen over the years. They are DA/SA instead of DAO. I've seen Beretta Vertecs, S&W 5906s, Sig P228s, and GLOCK 19s.

[JonInWA]

Some other informational points that I've become privy to that might be of interest is that the recoil spring for the P85/P89s are literally intended to be "lifetime" springs, fully capable for the forecasted lifespan of the guns (which I presume to be 20K rounds, IAW the DoD/JSSAP contract specifications). The only 9mm platform that I recall that exceeds this spring replacement interval is HK with their P30, with a recoil spring replacement interval of 25K rounds.

While probably of minimal operational significance, the P85/P89s are specifically designed for a single cartridge to be dropped into the chamber and then the slide closed; the key thing being that the extractor in that scenario snaps over the cartridge rim to be properly positioned/engaged-that sort of thing is usually harmful to extractor hooks, but not so in the case of the P85/P89. This feature is also shared by the Beretta 92, and presumably the other XM9/XM10 participants, but the Ruger and the Beretta are the only ones that I definitively know that this feature was applied to both organizational and commercial guns.

Due to the receiver anodization hardness and coating, despite being aluminum alloy, it's actually harder than the carbon/ordinance steel or stainless steel slides, so grease should be the lubricant of choice for slide/receiver rails-simply using a lighter viscosity oil-type lubricant is too thin, and the receiver rails will impart accelerated wear to the slide rails.

I've found that judicious applications of TW25B or Dri-Slide (a dry film molybdenum disulfide lubricant/anti-corrosive carried in suspension in a liquid solutions, which via gravity and capillary action allows it to travel to difficult to reach (and subsequently clean/re-lubricate) points, and then evaporates, leaving literally a dry film of lubricant, which subsequently lubricates without simultaneously serving as an attractant for dirt and residue)points in the action components (trigger bar, trigger linkage points, trigger trunnions, hammer pivot points) significantly cleans up and smooths out the triggerpull characteristics.

According to one of my Ruger contacts, the barrels of the P85/P89s were made of a proprietary steel (or steel of a proprietary recipe) that was, at least at the time of production, harder than any other OEM barrel steel, significantly adding to the lifespan of the barrels-which would seem to be supported by Cathellsk's experiences and anecdotal history of the BOP's use with their P89s.

Best, Jon

[Rich]

It was a early model . I call it Gen 1

You never knew where your shots would be on paper.

Every group ( if you could call it a group) would be different and shots seem to string.

I never seen anything like it.

I gave it to Mark and Bob who claim to be better shooters and they had the same problem.

The slide to frame fit was real loose . Matter of fact I haven't seen a pistol yet was as loose. I don't know if it played a part into the problem.

But from there on out I refuse to buy a pistol that has any slop.

I ended up traded the P85 in for a NIB Gen 1 80 Combat Elite 1911 45acp

BTW
Just because I had a lemon don't mean I hate the P85 or its later versions?
I've always thought the P was the AK47 of pistols.
And even though I'm a huge S&W revolver nut. My GP100 3inch and 6inch were every bit as accurate and I think stronger than the L frame.
So no Ruger hate here. Hell I even like the mini 14

[JonInWA]

Rich, "slop" can be misleadingly prejudicial sometimes-for example, the FN/Browning Hi Power is noted for a fairly loose slide-to-receiver fit, but examples throughout it's storied production history, in various calibers are usually more than decently accurate-their accuracy is primarily derived from the barrel-to-slide fit more than from their slide-to-receiver fit. Different guns from different manufacturers can perform differently, however...

In the case of your early-production P85, it likely suffered from a variety of accuracy maladies-possibly having a 2-piece barrel, loose/inadequate (for ideal accuracy) barrel-to-slide fit, too small/low sights...Ruger rectified all of these things, but unfortunately subsequent to yours. Realistically, you did have the AK47 of handguns with your early P85: it having AK47-like reliability and durability, combined with rack-grade AK-47-like accuracy...

Best, Jon