Side-Stepping When Firing, Reloading, etc.: valid tactic?

[leebotx]

I love this topic almost as much as Power Stroke vs. Slide lock......For me, inside 15ft, an aggressive side step during the draw makes more sense than trying to beat a trigger finger. Outside 15 ft the advantage of the side step diminishes since the angle the opponent needs to correct is small. I believe in the whole OODA loop thing and have seen bad azz gangsters lockup when things don't go their way. You WILL move when a gun is pointed in your face, might as well incorporate that reaction into your training.

[Dropkick]

I love this topic almost as much as Power Stroke vs. Slide lock......For me, inside 15ft, an aggressive side step during the draw makes more sense than trying to beat a trigger finger. Outside 15 ft the advantage of the side step diminishes since the angle the opponent needs to correct is small. I believe in the whole OODA loop thing and have seen bad azz gangsters lockup when things don't go their way. You WILL move when a gun is pointed in your face, might as well incorporate that reaction into your training.

I dunno... Is it harder to track a smaller distant target than it is a larger closer target?

[LOKNLOD]

I dunno... Is it harder to track a smaller distant target than it is a larger closer target?

I think the Venn diagram of "distances I'm small enough it's hard to track me if I move" and "distances I'm close enough that a side step generates enough traverse to make tracking harder" would be interesting to see.

[Dropkick]

I think the Venn diagram of "distances I'm small enough it's hard to track me if I move" and "distances I'm close enough that a side step generates enough traverse to make tracking harder" would be interesting to see.

Kind of... I was just thinking about the time difference it would take to do a transition from a 3x5 to 3x5 at 3 yards verses 10 yards. At 3 yards a little bit of over/under driving the gun may not be a bit deal, but at 10 yards a little bit of over/under driving could result in a miss. So maybe a combination of tracking and reacquiring an accurate sight picture. Makes me think of shooting clays a little bit, you have to be quick to hit them up close, but you have to be accurate to hit them at distance.

[leebotx]

I dunno... Is it harder to track a smaller distant target than it is a larger closer target?

Tracking I would agree.....but the objective of the side step is to gain time to draw and fire within the reaction time of the opponent. By the time the opponent is "tracking" he should be receiving incomming rounds.

[Adam]

I was introduced to the "Givens Model" at a class with him a couple years ago. Pretty simple experiment with a blue gun. Put the front sight on the person and have them sidestep at various distances. If you are at 10 yards, the effect will be less than if you were 4 feet apart. It is indeed difficult to hit someone who is no longer in front of your muzzle. Ideally, you've done thousands of presentations from the holster and focused on the importance of good first round hits and as Tom would say: "Take a side step, bring the pistol to eye-level and start making hits on Dude."

[Stengun]

Howdy,

I've read through this thread and it's interesting. Several people have mentioned the OODA loop and the last guy mentioned "Givens Model" but I believe in the KISS approach to things.

Here's a simple test:

Attach an IDPA target to a simple trolley ( you can build one out of a couple of 1"x2" and 2 small pulleys. Run a small coated cable between to post, trees, whatever so the COM of the IDPA target will be even to your COM. Attach a small cord that's 20' long to the trolley. Stand 5' infront of the target and have a friend ( or ex-wife ) hold on to the other end of the cord.

Have a 3rd friend yell "Go!", draw your gun and shoot the target.

Now, Have a 3rd friend yell "Go!" and have friend #1 pull on the cord as you try to draw and hit the target BEFORE it stops moving ( don't shoot your friend, but it is ok to shoot your ex-wife. lol ).

As you'll clearly see it's harder for you to hit a moving target than it is one that stationary.

It's the same thing for the BG.

Practice drawing and shooting while moving because it will will give you a tactical advantage over a BG the probably has more experience in the real world than you do.

Paul

[overton]

My take....if you need to move....move! If you don't need to move.....don't. Some situations will be very dynamic, some will have or need some movement at some point, and some will be better with a stationary position. If you train to move every time you shoot, you are setting up for a problem if the situation dictates a solid stationary position. If you never move, you'll likely have a very hard time in many situations.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. nyeti, I am really somebody who just listens to your (and other professionals) advice. But aren't this two totally contrary view of things?
On the one hand "two hands on gun, good sight picture, first hits count" (like Tom Givens mantra) and on the other "explosive, continuous movement,
one handed shooting while moving" like Suarez or here by Duane Liptak (now Magpul)?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUvl_SGaMmc
I see very little common ground. Is it so hard to put these opinions to test with Simunitions or UTM?

[voodoo_man]

Run and shoot or run then shoot/shoot then run. There is no in between.

[Wendell]

Personally, I think pre-programmed movements have little - if any – relevant value because they don’t resemble what you’ll do in a real circumstance. Your ability, need and willingness to move in a real-life situation will be based on the environment and the circumstances at hand...

At the NES Summit one year, for the shoot-off, shoot-off participants were told - specifically - that they were not to move or they would be disqualified. This instructive wasn't a problem for those (like myself*) who have not made a practice of this habit. To my surprise, however, participant after participant performed as they has practiced, and moved, and were disqualified from the shoot-off.

To me, this was evidence that - 'in a real circumstance' - those people just might move....and they just might live.





* I've been instructed but I've not yet learned.