I don't know much about agency purchases, but from what I've gleaned by hanging out here for few years is that it doesn't mean much. Could be that there was a squared away committee of dedicated shooters who cautiously tested a select group of products and put them through a scientific testing cycle to make sure that they met objective goals. Could mean that someone with a nice office and a fancy uniform said "Ohhh shiny! I want, I want"
The difference is that it's one thing for a guy to call up, say "I'm with FBI and I'd love to buy a CZ" and "This is the FBI, we'd like to order guns for official use."
It's the difference between, "I've taught at the DEA Academy" and "I had some DEA guys sign up for one of my open enrollment classes."
Absolutely true, and since I just reread the OP the Border Patrol thing could go either way based on the quoted statement.
Yup. I'm not busting on the guy, just pointing out that I don't think CZ is on any approved ICE/CBP "general" list. If someone told me there was a UC guy carrying one I could easily believe that, too. I've had some UC guys in class who have carried some crazy (and crazy expensive) guns.
It's not any sort of duty gun. There is still a pretty strong gun culture in USBP, and they have several competition shooting teams (Both national and sector level), including at least one USPSA/IPSC team, though I believe it's a sector level team. CZ's would make sense in that context.Originally Posted by ToddG
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I've seen agency owned weapons which were purchased / built / issued solely for competition use, such as 9mm caspian 1911's, longslide PC type S&W 5906's and various revolvers for bullseye / PPC competition. Never say never, but most UC and "flash" guns I'm aware of are are seized weapons issued as needed from national level armories.
Very good point, HCM. I'd totally forgot about all the shooting teams that agency supports.
"I'm scratching my head about the USBP thing. According to the list I have in front of me, no CZs are authorized for any CBP or ICE personnel."
I just check the NFTTU web page. As as Todd figured, CZ of any type is NOT APPROVED for on duty, or off duty carry by ANY of the DHS components.
The guy who claimed that is wrong...
As for Pistol Teams, they may use whatever is appropriate for the shooting sport. But the agency is typically not providing any weapons not already in inventory. I have talked with NFTTU about this, and in the past they have worked on guns (mostly 1911's and PPC revolvers) purchased by team members on a nationally sanctioned team. If you are just joe employee wearing a BP or ICE shirt at a match, the national armorers are not working on your personal gun...
Last edited by Gadfly; 03-18-2014 at 12:24 PM.
“A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane
The Border Patrol guys that shoot Bianchi Cup every year are some cool dudes, and they're crazy good shooters. Last year for Metallic they used six inch 1911s in 9mm or .38 Super, and for Production the guy who won shot an XDm.
Just for clarity, no one has stated the CZ is approved by any component of DHS, including the gunsmith I quoted - that's basically what we were trying to figure out. It's now settled, as far as I can see.
As OP, the point of my post was to take a well-considered part from a well-considered gunsmith (whom I have not named) for the kind of part I need and try to apply ToddG's principles of determining the pre-production testing regimen of that part and the parts it touches. It's harder to do than it appears; there are proprietary data considerations as well as those of time constraints for the gunsmith to try to resolve such questions as I provided him. In an attempt to answer my own question, I don't believe I can realistically obtain such info from a gunsmith that might be available to others who are inside the industry, and I'll have to call that gunsmith's response "good enough," both for the purposes of this forum and for any trigger shortening I might need. That's always assuming he'll sell me one after this...
For what it's worth, I think you did a heck of a job trying to nail down as much as you could and you can make a decision based on what you've learned.
I'm going to be running Gray Guns triggers in my two P229s. Have they been tested over as many years, as many trials/procurements, in as many guns, etc., as the stock trigger? Nope. I trust Bruce and his gang to develop the product properly, to understand the metallurgy and the machining, etc. I trust that they did enough testing of the design -- and they have enough understanding about SIGs -- to feel confident.
It was never my intention to say all aftermarket parts are always bad or dangerous or whatever. But the immediate assumption folks seem to have that all of these aftermarket parts are necessarily as good or better is a dangerous one, and all the moreso when people put such blind faith in parts developed for competition that they put them in carry guns without really asking the big important questions first.
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