Both good points.Originally Posted by ToddG
Both good points.
Great article DB. I am going to check that out tomorrow while shooting IDPA. I have noted when we war training in stuff like FoF or doing dummy gun dry technical work that I avert my muzzle off of other people. I'm curious what I normally do live fire with cardboard. I do note that I have never shot a no-shoot in a match, and a lot of the guys I shoot with can't say that.
I'm guessing this would be the sort of thing a steady on laser would be helpful with as a training tool.
I believe the hard programming of muzzle discipline for every perceived innocent on scene is setting yourself up for sub par performance. Performance that could make the difference. As ToddG illustrated, the situation dictates.
I never considered the issue from a trainer's perspective. Off the cuff: How about a a simple competition stage set up and have the students hose the bad guys for time. Then have them put their thinking caps on beforehand and re-shoot it as a real-life assault staging. Great stress relief, good illustration on competition vs. training and using competition for training, and moving from stress relief back to serious class mindset. All without being an arse/setting them up for failure.
Given the impossibility of training for every conceivable circumstance, this seems like a problem worthy of discussion and highlighting in a class, but I agree with FN and Todd's point: What do you do when the price of muzzling a loved one is less than the price of getting the gun on the BG RFT?
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Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.
This is exactly the point. If the price on muzzling a loved one (or somebody else's) is worth doing it, should we be VERY conscious of our last fail-safe, finger in register? Should this also be a response where we make a conscious, articulable decision to do it, with a high level of justification. Right now most of us have been "range programmed" to just do this without thought. Now, once we think "okay, given my training, skill set, and a high level of thought about making a rapid decision to exercise this option in an extreme situation..........who else do I want doing this? Like many, I have clearly thought that if some evil heathen was in tight quarters to my daughter and my loved ones and I have decided to take extreme measures and violate rules right down to only the Golden Rule left to do what is needed....I may do this. With that said, do you want the armed security guard at the mall to pull this over your loved ones........? Who is qualified to do this? Crap.........back to issues.
I just got off the phone with a true legend of the training community (apparently, this has caused a disturbance in the force) who was part of the group that got us out of running fingers on triggers as the normal way things are done. We had a very good discussion and both of us were in agreement that we would be comfortable with making a critical decision to violate rule 2, but rule 3 would really need to be sub-consciously in-grained. We also agreed that we are not comfortable with everyone who carries a gun pulling this off. This is why I think it is so important to be at least talking about this and finding some good ideas to pursue as how we train for these situations and how we train our brains for solving this problem. To me this is the epitome of why training for real world shooting is not about shooting, but about shooting being a part of the problem solving equation.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
The armed, minimum proficiency guards and Joe Blows will likely be doing it anyway, no? Like licensed, incompetent drivers, there's not much you can do about them.
Raising the issue in class and training your students to the realities of it (including honest self-assessment of their abilities) is the best you can do for the issue and the shooters. Or are you getting at something else?
Precisely what happened in multiple stages at the NTI I attended at Gunsite. Blind stages, and a pick-up gun to be loaded -- as I recall a 30-30 lever gun.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
First off, thanks for that, JAD: May it come to pass someday. Second, it's obvious that this is one of those P-F threads that needs more than one read; my own jury is out on this. And, lastly, in your scenario, these things can be argued either way with some degree of success on both sides. To riff off of ToddG for a sec, let's say that my view is as above: felon-you-felon. Maybe I'm on my A-game, and I take care of business with F1, and he's going down and I see that F2 is about to put steel in you, or has a half beat lead on you on the draw. You can bet that I'd be muzzling the kitten out of you on the way to giving F2 a generous helping of 124 GDHP. You would be welcome to chew my ass later. Again, case-by-case, and competing harms. I just can't see myself training for losing time in a fight, with any tool. But, again, I'm no pro, and I'm only on my first read through here...
I am not sure this applies:
This section does not apply to a law enforcement officer who is acting within the scope of the law enforcement officer's official duties or to a person who is justified in using reasonable force against another person under:
Seems to me, that if you are justified in using your weapon, then it is not illegal to muzzle innocent people while doing it.
Perhaps there isnt anything you can do about them, or perhaps so. My thoughts on this were that the general concept on training could perhaps be changed. If it starts in one place, and spreads as an accepted good idea, then the lower level folks in the overall equation will at some point be aware of it, and hopefully begin to incorporate it into their mindset.
On another note, as I read through this, it made me think of some writers from the past that mentioned that when gunfire broke out or seemed imminent, people tended to hit the floor to get out of the way. I don't think many think of it today. Some public service announcements, and some public firearms handling classes or even TV shows could sure help the world be a little safer place. Such things could be done in schools, and it would seem like second nature to most people, but that may be too much to ask. Screaming and running around in a panic don't help do anything to resolve a situation.
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