Just for any Hoosiers following the thread, the crime in question is "Pointing A Firearm", per IC 35-47-4-3.Originally Posted by nyeti
Just for any Hoosiers following the thread, the crime in question is "Pointing A Firearm", per IC 35-47-4-3.
Excellent article.
Thanks for the link. I'm a Hoosier but living in FL.
by accident or not intentionally
Stole that, just now.
Great article, great thread.
Ignore Alien Orders
I thought of a scenario. You and I bump into each other and I decide to take you out for a beer because I enjoy your posts (true story). I'm armed, you're armed. We get accosted. I wind up ten feet closer to the felons than you, so your view is felon-me-felon. I want you to engage! I will be shooting but I want you shooting too! But no, brother, you may NOT muzzle me in the back!
Ignore Alien Orders
That is because like many things in the gun world, especially tactical world, they are doing it wrong.
They saw a picture, read a forum, or article, and decided they should use it without ever considering the "why" behind the technique, or tactic, or procedure, and how/when to use it.
It's important, as has been said, to focus on making the problem realistic so the evaluation is realistic. Wayne, nyeti, and I had a little backchannel discussion about this before the thread started and I posed two scenarios.
Scenario 1 is sort of like the one from the original MSW discussion. If you run that as a drill, it becomes like any other multi-target drill and everyone races to the next (known location, known status BG) after a pre-determined number of rounds to shoot more pre-determined number of rounds at it. It's a target to target transition and I've long held that's a pretty artificial skill altogether from a defensive standpoint. Unless you're stacking bodies in a doorway, you're going to have to locate and PID (or re-PID) the next threat after downing the first. So if you really just shot BG#1 and now you're having to see if there is even a BG2 left to deal with, you're probably going to be coming into some kind of ready (unlike DB, I love high ready) and that means you won't be muzzle/finger until you're driving the gun to the next threat wherever/whoever that might be. So if you're trained to dismount the gun safely, that problem sort of solves itself.
The tricky problem is Scenario 2 which I defined as this: You are at one end of a hallway and BG1 moves toward you. You shoot BG1 to the ground just as your daughter is pushed around the corner at the other end of the hallway by BG2 who is holding a knife and about to plunge it into her. You're literally finger on trigger having just shot BG1 and that scene appears. What are you going to do? I know what I would do, which is drive the gun straight from BG1's body to BG'2 face... traversing the daughter with my muzzle and probably with my finger on the trigger. In fact, I'd probably be prepping the trigger for the shot. Because it's safe? No, because that's the way I shoot when I move from one immediate threat to another. I've been to Rogers four times and spent 10-12,000 rounds probably doing drills that are exactly like that and I don't recall ever having fired a shot accidentally between targets.
But does that mean I should be risking the hostage's life because that habit hasn't bit me in the butt?
The traverse is probably unstoppable. Anyone who says he'd have the wherewithal to wave the gun in a mad arc around the hostage who is being moved and pushed and everything else is probably more hopeful than clueful. But traversing the hostage with finger on trigger... I think that's a bridge too far and a serious training scar. Especially with my much bragged about "so much better than a tuned Glock" light short-reset SIG SA trigger might I be more of a threat than the guy with the knife?
So the question becomes, how to program the right response for the right time. I'm not going to go finger-to-register between each target in an array, am I?
Figuring out an answer to that is one of the reasons I think this could be a fantastic thread.
I love that this forum has so many guys like nyeti and company who are constantly looking for a way to push the envelope. It really gives me a lot of ground to cover as well as food for thought.
That being said, I recently was practicing at my local virtual shoot house and the instructor told me that in between each shot I'd have to go to sul as if a loved one was walking past me. I found this excruciatingly tiring on my traps after 50+ rounds, but incredibly helpful to my press out. In addition it gave me a new appreciation for a true 'no shoot'.
Does that sound like the right kind of answer to the question you're positing??
Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.
I read of a match years ago, nobody was allowed to see or listen to anyone else go through before they shot, and nobody knew exactly what was entailed in the scenario until it happened to them. Seemed like an interesting way to run it, and would add to problem solving abilities rather than "running by the numbers". Don't know if anyone is doing that sort of thing, but I liked the idea of it.
BTW, in that particular shoot, there was a part where the shooters were disarmed, and found a pick-up gun along the way with a partially loaded mag, along with a handful of loose rounds in the dirt around it. ONE guy stopped, picked up the loose rounds and loaded the guns mag full, then proceeded. He was the only one that had enough ammo to finish successfully. Probably not entirely applicable to what most will run into in real life non-military situations, but was an interesting twist.
The logistics of something like that are huge, especially if you don't want competitors even to hear what's going on in a bay.
That kind of stuff bugs the hell out of me. It rewards playing the gotcha/anti-gotcha game. In real life in a dangerous environment are you going to stop and dig around in the dirt looking for loose ammo for a strange and unproven gun, or are you going to stay on track trying to get the hell back home safe & sound? I'm very, very hard pressed to imagine a realistic scenario in which the 30-50 rounds I'd be carrying for my gun on my belt wouldn't be enough but which I could somehow fire without sustaining fatal wounds myself.BTW, in that particular shoot, there was a part where the shooters were disarmed, and found a pick-up gun along the way with a partially loaded mag, along with a handful of loose rounds in the dirt around it. ONE guy stopped, picked up the loose rounds and loaded the guns mag full, then proceeded. He was the only one that had enough ammo to finish successfully. Probably not entirely applicable to what most will run into in real life non-military situations, but was an interesting twist.
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