TDA pistols, trigger jobs and legal pitfalls

[imp1295]

With quite a bit of recent discussion on both TDA pistols, Bill's re-working and creation of Moran and my recent acquisition of a CZ P-01 the question of improving the DA/SA pull of my stock CZ has crossed my mind.

I'll be attending MAG-20 this weekend. And, I've read enough of Mas's comments and heard his views on ProArms to realize that he feels the modification of any trigger to anything of a lighter pull weight could be construed by an overzealous DA as negative intention in the legal aftermath of a defensive shooting.

If my search fu has failed me to find a previous discussion on the topic I apologize. But, I'd be interested in some of the positions of the experienced here.

Of course, I would gander that any of the M9s in any number of Arms Rooms would be so worn down to be well below the stock weight...but, that is a completely different matter than the context of a civilian use of force encounter.

Thanks ahead of time all. Just looking to keep on learning.

-Chuck

[JV_]

Some of this is answered in this thread about deactivating the mag safety:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...-Ramifications

[Totem Polar]

Ask him about it at Mag-20; it can also be argued that judicious action/trigger work increases your accuracy potential and reduces the likelihood of errant shots.

[GardoneVT]

I don't think it's as big of a deal as one might suspect at first.

Far be it for me to put words in Mas Ayoobs' mouth, but he's referring to situations where an end user modifies a firearm to a specification below factory standard. Such puts an easy argument in front of an unscrupulous lawyer that said end user took a risk he or she was not qualified to make-and remember, a "jury of our peers" refers to 12 Gun ignorant souls who get their weapon education from Channel 12 news and Hollywood, instead of professionals. As such, a bogus argument that a lighter trigger represents a negligent risk goes much further then it should- and that can destroy a citizen in court. Even if the verdict is in the citizens favor, the extended legal costs incurred by playing gun teacher at $400 per billable hour to the jury can bury someone after the fact.

All of that risk, for a trigger two or so pounds lighter? It's a risk vs reward equation not worth contemplating, IMO.

[HeadHunter]

I keep a Beretta Vertec for my house gun. Initially, I put a D spring in it, which cleaned up the trigger pull some. Then I tried a Nowlin 19.5# mainspring, which gave a nice pull. Unfortunately, it worked well with premium anti-personnel ammo (Federal HST) but less well with standard range ammo. I had two failures to fire at the Polite Society Tactical Conference. I think those two FtFs moved me from 3d place to 9th, so I went back to the D spring, which sets everything off.

The liability issue probably varies from state to state. I'm unaware of any case here in Georgia where it's even been an issue, but this is a free state, not Denied Territory where Mas has done a lot of work. It's not of concern to me because of that.

[Don Gwinn]

If I recall correctly, Ayoob told us that smoother, crisper, shorter, longer, etc. were all fine things to do to a trigger as long as you could articulate why you chose to change the action--how was it better/safer/more accurate after you changed it? He did mention that "lighter" can be a problem, but as Gardone says, mostly because of other peoples' perceptions. The average person who doesn't know anything about shooting believes that they know that light triggers are dangerous (and in fairness, they're not 100% wrong, just missing the nerdy nuances.)

If memory serves, he'll also caution that some parts and even entire guns carry disclaimers from the manufacturer that they are "not intended for duty use," or words to that effect. I seem to remember discussion of 3.5 Glock connectors 'n stuff. He's not telling you not to use one, but he's cautioning that the manufacturer may disavow you like an Impossible Mission Team.

The takeaway for me was this: I won't make a change to a self-defense tool if I can't articulate my reason for it. You don't have to make any particular choice the way Ayoob would make it, but don't put yourself in a position to be asked why you chose a lighter trigger weight and have to say, "I don't know, it seemed like a good idea at the time."

If you haven't taken MAG20C before, it's going to feel like drinking from the fire hose. Just take all the notes and don't worry about trying to remember everything unless that's your superpower.

The liability issue probably varies from state to state. I'm unaware of any case here in Georgia where it's even been an issue, but this is a free state, not Denied Territory where Mas has done a lot of work. It's not of concern to me because of that.

I see what you mean, and you'd probably consider Illinois "Denied Territory." Maybe I should, too. On the other hand, George Zimmerman was in Florida, the "Gunshine State," but his case took on some new aspects when the national media applied national (well, Manhattan and Hollywood, anyway) standards and attitudes. I think we agree that it's a very small risk, but I see no reason to take it. However, what you wrote makes it clear that you could have articulated your reasons for changing those springs out in court if it had come to that, and I really do think that's the main point Ayoob wants people to walk away with: be able to give your reason for each decision. It doesn't have to be what he would do, but it has to be reasonable and easy to explain to people who don't know what you're talking about. "I changed the spring because handguns are difficult to shoot, and it made the trigger press feel smoother and lighter. That made it easier to press the trigger without moving the gun, and that made it easier to get hits, which made me safer and more effective."

[YVK]

Ask him to quote acual cases that could be looked up where prosecution actively argued this point.

[HeadHunter]

I see what you mean, and you'd probably consider Illinois "Denied Territory." Maybe I should, too.

I escaped Chicargo almost 30 years ago. It's definitely 'Denied Territory' in my mind, although less so than NJ, NY, and MD. The gun laws were one thing that drove me out, the other being the weather.

[ToddG]

Folks tend to take a single sentence Mas wrote in a single article and blow it out of context. Given that at some point he's probably said "North is up" and another he's said "North is down" over the course of umpteen million articles, class lectures, and court presentations, and given that in context he was probably right both times, it's easy to cherry pick Mas quotes and get things twisted around.

I think Don Gwinn has the right of it, though. Like everything about the use of force, first it comes down to articulation. I can explain why my gun has a trigger job. I can show that I'm more accurate with a tuned trigger than a lighter one, and I can articulate how that translates into being both more effective and safer if I need the weapon in self-defense. I also understand this carries with it a burden that will probably cost me some more billable hours for my lawyers and my expert witness(es) because now they'll have to address the issue whereas if I'd kept the gun in stock condition there's no issue for opposing counsel to raise in the first place.

The locality issue is also a valid concern. If I kept a suppressed SBR in my room for home defense, in MD, that's going to become a media circus if I shoot someone. But if I keep a P229 with a light attached to it next to my bed, well that's just what my buddies in the State Department said their SWAT guys use (not that they call them that) and it's what the Secret Service SWAT guys (not that they call them that) use, too. Yadda yadda. Or perhaps why I'd get a Beretta 1301 Competition and mod it to be just like a 1301 Tactical instead of getting a 1301 Tactical.

[imp1295]

I will definitely consider some of the points some have offered. Especially the decision to modify and the ability to articulate those reasons or have counsel articulate those reasons is likely the most salient point.

After 22 years of constant concern with the understanding, articulation and implementation of ROE you'd think I'd have a better handle on this stuff. More and more I'm thinking of going to Law school once the big green lets me to go away for good.