Also keep in mind that once an attorney is involved, it is now an adversarial relationship with law enforcement. In my mind, there is going to be a time and a place (hopefully, it is never) for that adversarial relationship. I just don't know if I want that right out of the gate, unless the situation is really bad with L/E or I know I am in trouble.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
You've also got a much better understanding of what to say and how to say it when dealing with police than most regular folks, no? I've seen smart, competent folk absolutely fall apart justifying themselves to Craig after ECQC evos; I can't imagine what Joe Average would say to the cops after a shooting at 7/11.
I think TR has the most important bit, there, DB. If you see flashing lights in your rearview when you know you'd been speeding, does your pulse race? If you get pulled over, are you nervous as the cop walks toward your car? I'm betting it's about as stressful for you as taking a nap. But for a whole lot of people, just seeing those lights immediately puts them into territory that is as foreign as the surface of the moon.
You've been through multiple shooting reviews. Most folks haven't ever really been honest with themselves to think through the possibility that it could happen to them. You know what to say, how to say it, and to whom. They just know they're in for the ride of their lives.
Do I think lawyering up is the best option in every situation? No. But as a default decision for someone who just had -- by orders of magnitude -- the most stressful event of his life suddenly vomit itself all over his otherwise normal Friday night out with the wife, who is possibly literally standing over the corpses of the men he just killed, who doesn't really understand the law and has nothing but TV to tell him what the next 24 hours of his life might be like... Yeah, getting a trained professional to help guide you through that morass would be my default suggestion.
I agree wholeheartedly. The problem I have seen is that gun shops/forums/show and other places where "experts" reside in our world are handing out a lot of advice that they don't understand either. I try to be the other side of that. Trust me, I didn't make up the "if I get in a shooting I am having my lawyer call 911". I am a big fan of the "if you are a victim, act like it" and "if they are talking to you like a suspect" respond accordingly. In my shootings I started the conversation with the investigators with confirming in a very non-confrontational manner that I was being interviewed as a victim. There is nothing wrong with finding out where you stand and what mindset the investigators are in. If the answer was "no", "we are still trying to figure things out", or some other non committal or negative communication, that would have changed my game plan. The problem comes in when they say "yes, we are interviewing you as the victim or at the scene every single indication is that they know you are the good guy (the other guy being in cuff's or all his/her friends being in cuff's while the LEO's are being very nice to you is a "clue"), I would suggest to really keep the victim status. There are ways to ask for council without being an adversary. I don't want to hand out legal advice, but pre thought is a good thing.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
I believe there are insurance companies specifically to cover the cost of going to court over legally defending yourself with a weapon.
So, this is going a little off the skids, but no where near as bad as it might've on other gun related fora.
First, I think I have, to a certain extent, a duty to provide a certain amount of information to law enforcement. If for example, there are armed dangerous criminals running around, I think I should tell the cops that. I'd hate to have a police officer get shot because instead of sharing a description of a suspect, I was sitting there saying "miranda" backwards, hoping it would transport me to bizzaro-land.
Second, there's some information I would share out of self interest. For example "The guy that tried to stab me dropped the knife in the bushes over there."
Third, I can't think of too many circumstances where it wouldn't make sense to at least provide some basic information. Stuff like: "he kicked in my front door so I shot him" or "He hit me in the back of the head with a socket wrench as I was getting my car keys out, so I shot him." This kind of stuff will likely be told to the first responding officers at the scene.
When we get to sitting down to talk to detectives, doing some kind of video taped walk through, answer questions about the EXACT order that things happened or who was standing where, when, I want a lawyer. I also want to some time getting my thoughts in order to make sure I don't say something stupid Ill regret later. I've had "dynamic" incidents where in the immediate after math I couldn't quite remember exactly how it all went down.
All of it is pretty institutional. If I wake up to a crash in the middle of the night and discover a guy I don't know, with a upside down cross tattooed on his forehead swinging a battle axe as he runs up my stairs, I'll shoot him to the ground and not feel real stressed about talking to the cops.
Here's a war story for you:
About 10 years ago I was driving on a country road with my ex-wife and then 8 year old daughter. I was about 2 years out of LE and was lawfully carrying a gun with a CHL. We got a flat tire. I pulled over into the driveway of a house to get off the road. the house was set back about 200 yards from the road.
I always crack the lug nuts free before jacking the car. About the time I got the last one loosened up and was about to jack the car up, a pickup comes bombing down the driveway. It stops and an old dude in his 50's or 60's starts screaming at me from his open drivers window. I told him I had a flat.
He got out and produces an honest to god axe handle and commences to tell me he's going to split my head open from about 50 feet away. I draw, but hold the gun behind my leg and tell him to "Stay the F Back."
Fortunately he did, and I elected to get in the car, with a flat tire and 4 loose lug nuts, sans jack, spare, and lug wrench. We made it a quarter of a mile down the road before the tire gave out completely. We stopped in front of another guy's house. He listened to my story, knew the 1st guy and believe it or not, drove down and got my jack, wrench and tire for me. He allowed as how the neighbor was crazy and figured it was a matter of time before something bad happened.
My point to telling all this? If he had gotten out of the truck with a gun, I would have shot him. If he had gotten out come much closer to me with the axe handle, I would have shot him. If he had followed me in his truck to the place where my car gave out, I probably would have shot him.
Then I would have been in a situation of shooting a guy, on HIS property. I think I would have been much less inclined to talk to law enforcement in that case, and much more inclined to "lawyer up" quickly.
So anyway, we drifted into "what to say to the cops right after a shooting." So far we haven't done too bad though.
What I'm after is:
I'm curious if anybody here has gone through this process. How did you select an attorney? Did you meet with attorney before hand? if so, what questions did you ask?
Not much to add, save this: the friendly local range where I shoot and train (also brings in people like Farnam and Janich) has these member clinics once a month. One of the clinics a while back involved a panel with a sitting prosecuting attorney and an experienced defense lawyer going over several hypothetical shooting scenarios from their respective positions.
I made sure to grab the defense guy's card afterwords, and it's tacked up on the bulletin board in the office along with numerous other contacts, our Mini Cooper mechanic, etc., where my wife and I can both find it.
I don't have my defense attorney picked out. I do, however, have my normal attorney (the guy who did my will and home purchase) on speed dial, and I trust him to get me set up with a competent defense attorney for the short term if I call and say "OMG I just shot someone."
Does anyone have experience with the various forms of legal insurance available, or the armed citizen's legal defense network? The first few google searches I found either a) didn't mention shootings or b) said that it was up to the discretion of the group how much legal financial support to provide.
Those of you who don't have a lawyer with specific expertise picked out but have your regular lawyer on tap and trust that s/he can set you up with the right person when the time comes, have you ever asked him or her if s/he could actually do that? You might be surprised how many lawyers don't know much about their local legal community or don't know many lawyers beyond those who practice in the same field as them. The lawyer who drafted your will, closed on your house or helped you sell your business may not know who to call in the middle of the night when you shoot somebody. It's worth checking out in advance.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I think an often overlooked aspect of this subject is that you don't "have a lawyer" unless he or she is on retainer. If you call and their current case load is too heavy, or they refuse to take your case for any other reason, it's good to have other options. Also, unless you spend all of your time in one place, a lawyer from county A might not be the best option in county B. this is obviously even more true when thinking about different states. Some pro-gun organizations offer attorney referral services that can help recommend an attorney in almost any jurisdiction.
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