Dry-fire ok, live fire not-so-much

[HCountyGuy]

So I've been putting in a considerable amount of dry fire practice with my P229. When it comes down to it, I'm pretty well squared-away dry firing.

My issue comes in to play when it comes time to live fire. I get out on the range and my accuracy is nowhere near what I'd like it to be. My groupings are fairly centered, but have a tendency to stray from time to time.

I've caught myself anticipating recoil, and generally follow it up with some dry firing to reinforce a good trigger pull. However, going back to that live round, it all goes down the river.

What can I do to help sort this out?

[GJM]

1) more live fire.

2) mixed live and dummy, alternating so you know which is live and which is dummy.

3) try plugs and muffs.

4) remember there are subtleties of trigger control and lock up that may not be apparent dry firing.

[ToddG]

Dry fire is far from the panacea that many want it to be. Can it be useful? Absolutely. But lots of dry fire wrong, even subtly wrong, is just as bad as lots of live fire wrong. Things like grip and final trigger break often get cheated a bit.

That's doubly true for folks who chase speed in dry fire instead of working on mechanics perfectly. Like anything, at a certain level you need to develop your own pace and there are certainly guys out there who dry fire their sub-second reloads on the clock and push hard and get better. But then even they can't pull off those acts at that pace live and the question becomes are you programming yourself to go too fast and risk mistakes when it's real?

[GJM]

I think Eric Grauffel has it about right, as described by him in an interview:

6. How much live fire & dry fire training do you do on a daily – weekly basis.

Dry fire, I do it usually Sunday or days I could not go to the range because of weather conditions.
Live fire, minimum 500 rounds per session 6 times a week. It happens I shoot 1000 or even 1500 in
the day, if I am practicing with mates.

http://www.gunsite.co.za/forums/show...-Eric-Grauffel

[TheTrevor]

That's an interesting definition of "has it about right", G, and I say that as someone who's currently on the 2000-or-more-rounds-per-month plan.

[ToddG]

I think the huge difference in approach between Graufell and most of the top US shooters is very interesting. Graufell is clearly beyond dominating and he's the only one who shoots more than dry fires. But in fairness, if you could only be as good as one of those guys like Vogel who dry fires 10x more than he live fires would that really be too weak for you?

If you have unlimited time, ammo, and range access sure. At 50k/yr I almost never dry fired and like the OP found that serious dry fire was actually hampering me. But that's the fault of mistakes I was making in my technique as I dry fired and not an indictment of dry fire in general.

[TheTrevor]

HCG, just from my personal experience:

Get training if you can. Take an intermediate pistol course and/or book a couple of hours of private instruction with a pro.

On the range:

Slow down. Shoot less. Work the fundamentals on every single shot. Use lots of fresh targets.

Plugs AND external ear protection, as GJM said. Very important.

Get comfortable with your gun, your grip, and build confidence that it's not going to fly out of your hand or hurt you when you pull the trigger.

Relax and focus on running the trigger while detaching yourself from the outcome (gun goes boom). Sometimes picking a blank spot on a clean target enables people to stop over controlling the gun because they're trying too hard to maintain sight alignment.

Work on your grip strength.

[taadski]

Dry fire is far from the panacea that many want it to be. Can it be useful? Absolutely. But lots of dry fire wrong, even subtly wrong, is just as bad as lots of live fire wrong. Things like grip and final trigger break often get cheated a bit.

I agree completely. But aren't those facts the very reason why dry fire can be such a powerful tool? And if one is attentive, it allows for arguably better pure mechanics diagnostics because of the lack of the [BOOM] distractions.

That's doubly true for folks who chase speed in dry fire instead of working on mechanics perfectly. Like anything, at a certain level you need to develop your own pace and there are certainly guys out there who dry fire their sub-second reloads on the clock and push hard and get better. But then even they can't pull off those acts at that pace live and the question becomes are you programming yourself to go too fast and risk mistakes when it's real?

I think we're visiting well trodden ground here as the "outrunning your headlights vs pushing yourself past your limit to improve" argument has been discussed in earnest before. That said, I disagree with the sentiment that folks should settle in and 'develop their own pace' for very long if they're truly interested in getting better. I think it's a very rare shooter that has reached their true potentials. And I'm not saying folks shouldn't dial it back to a level at which they can perform at a very high level of consistency regularly. I'm saying that without pushing past their respective comfort zones in training regularly, they're never going to learn what it feels like (and probably more importantly, looks like) to operate their weapon at a pace faster than their current comfort level.

Assuming (and I agree that this is a big assumption) folks are giving the appropriate credence to the fundamentals (and those fundamentals are being verified with their vision), as one pushes the speed side of the skill set, the level at which they can perform "at a very high level of consistency" increases also. I don't think anyone is expecting that dry fire performance is going to carry over 1:1 in live fire. But as one's skills increase dry there is often a definitive and trackable skill increase live. I guess what I'm saying is that, IMO, dry fire CAN be the panacea folks want it to be if it's done correctly. I'd also argue that by increasing the speed at which we can function in control, we're programming ourselves with skills that will increase our experience and comfort level at speed and thereby decrease the likelihood of our going "...too fast and making mistakes when it's real."

Anyway….Flame away.
t

[taadski]

For the OP:

If you haven't seen it, check out Flexmoney's little tutorial below. It's full of gold nuggets.


http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...howtopic=82124


Kyle's Flinch Breaker - 101 (generic version)

- Double plug. I doubt you are flinching due to noise, but double plug anyway...at least when you are shooting.

- Know that the big explosion going off at arms length won't do you any harm (simple, I know...but it is something the shooter has to "decide" to accept)

- less pressure with the strong hand grip...more pressure with the weak hand. The strong hand needs to be relaxed to operate the trigger in a smooth manner.

Calling the shot & follow-thru

If you have a flinch, then you just aren't calling the shot and following-thru. There is no way around that truth.

If you were calling the shot, you would see that it was off. Eventually, you just wouldn't take the shot.

Here are some things to see.

- You have to have a Front Sight focus. Razor sharp. Burn it in!!! Forget the target focus for close stuff crap...there are Masters that shouldn't be doing that.

When you next go to shoot, don't use a target. Aim at the berm. Not a rock or clump of mud, just the berm in general.

Watch the front sight ONLY. Make yourself see it track. That is your only goal here. Do single shots at first. Get a solid sight picture both before and after each shot. That is two sight pictures for each shot...follow-thru.

If you don't see the front sight lifting and coming back, then don't move on. This is vital. If you do see it, move to multiple shots...but keep seeing and keep that follow-thru!

- Next, move to a close target (one yard). Again, the focus is on watching the front sight track. Target blurry. The target just happens to be there. keep seeing the front sight...TWO sight pictures for each shot. Do single shots first.

You should be able to call each and every shot. If you can't, then you weren't focused on the front sight.

Never advance if you encounter a problem. If all goes well, move the target back a yard at a time.

- Never try to 'catch the sight' and pull the trigger as it (sight picture) wobbles around in the A-zone. Accept that the sights will move around on the target. Just focus on the front sight and release the shot. If it is off, then you will have called it from your read on the sights as the bullet was released.

This brings up the next point.

- TRUST. You HAVE to trust your sights. Don't look for hits on the target. EVER! Read the sights. If you shot a hoper or a Delta, make it up!

A big part of people missing is that they start to look for the hits. They end up looking AS the gun fires. As they look over the gun, they pull it off target.

If you call the sights, then there is no need to look (or listen) for hits.


If you find yourself doing the "pull the trigger NOW" thing, try this...pretend that your gun is a giant paint brush that extends to the target. Use your gun (sighted) to "paint" a circle around the A-zone. Keep painting the circle, then release the shot at any time along the circle. Call that shot. (don't worry about the hit in the A-zone).

If you find yourself looking at the target, or looking for hits ...instead of focusing on the front sight...then close your eyes (safely). Line up the sights between shots, then close your eyes and deliver the shot. Chances are your group will tighten up.

If you do the above...and still have a flinch (dry/live-fire) then let me know. Chances are, your flinch might come back during a match. If so, then slow down and call the shot...and follow-thru.

Hope you find this helpful!

Kyle

[GJM]

I think, given unlimited time and resources, any rational person would choose the Grauffel approach.

The question, is without the ability to shoot every day, are we better off dry firing. Based on Vogel, Stoeger, Steve Anderson, and many others, I think the answer is clearly yes. However, just as there is valuable live fire and less effective live fire practice, I think the same is true of dry fire. For me, the key is frequent live fire so that I can validate what I am doing in my dry fire practice. As I said in my first post, I believe there are subtleties in trigger control and lock up, that are hard to work out in dry fire. By continuing to refine dry fire practice, so that it does translate into live fire performance, you are evolving what you see and feel dry firing to make it more realistic. That takes it to a higher level than scratching the surface with dry fire and concluding it isn't helpful.