Question:Why IDPA/USPSA?

[1911Nut]

USPSA and IDPA are both games.

They are different enough that they have different rules.

Typically, there are processes in place that provide avenues for changing the rules if the demand for those changes is strong enough. Realistically rules changes take time and are often not too huge in magnitude.

One of the great things about living in this country is our freedom of choice. If a shooter likes IDPA and USPSA, he can shoot in both disciplines. If he only likes one of them, he can shoot in that discipline. And if he doesn't like either of the disciplines, it is his right to choose to not participate.

It is my opinion that non-constructive criticism of any shooting sport creates a division among shooters who choose sides. And that division among shooters is something we CANNOT afford the let happen. We have enough naysayers and enemies of our sport and our Second Amendment rights. We don't need to help them.

YMMV

[ToddG]

As I said, some people like Fords and some people like Chevys. Some people care so much that they bad mouth the other. Some people care so much they bad mouth the people who choose the other.

Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. Both games wax and wane over time. IDPA wouldn't exist without USPSA; IDPA wouldn't exist without people being unhappy with USPSA. Production wouldn't exist without IDPA; Production wouldn't exist without people being unhappy with IDPA. That cycle will continue.

Some of the things USPSA shooters say they dislike about IDPA are exactly the things I like about IDPA.

Some of the things IDPA shooters say they dislike about USPSA are exactly the things I like about USPSA.

As for the most vitriolic complaints, they're often most appropriately directed at clubs or individuals, not the sport as a whole.

SLG and I shot a few times at a club -- doesn't matter which sport -- where the stages were often ridiculous and some of the shooters, even some of the match officials, thought they knew ten times more about shooting and guns than they did. When it became obvious that was business as usual at this club I stopped going. It didn't change my opinion of the sport. I just didn't like that particular club.

[Alaskapopo]

As I said, some people like Fords and some people like Chevys. Some people care so much that they bad mouth the other. Some people care so much they bad mouth the people who choose the other.

Both games have their advantages and disadvantages. Both games wax and wane over time. IDPA wouldn't exist without USPSA; IDPA wouldn't exist without people being unhappy with USPSA. Production wouldn't exist without IDPA; Production wouldn't exist without people being unhappy with IDPA. That cycle will continue.

Some of the things USPSA shooters say they dislike about IDPA are exactly the things I like about IDPA.

Some of the things IDPA shooters say they dislike about USPSA are exactly the things I like about USPSA.

As for the most vitriolic complaints, they're often most appropriately directed at clubs or individuals, not the sport as a whole.

SLG and I shot a few times at a club -- doesn't matter which sport -- where the stages were often ridiculous and some of the shooters, even some of the match officials, thought they knew ten times more about shooting and guns than they did. When it became obvious that was business as usual at this club I stopped going. It didn't change my opinion of the sport. I just didn't like that particular club.

For me at least it is not the club as the club shoots both and most of the same shooter shoot both. My opinion is that IDPA is not very responsive to its shooters. In USPSA they listen to the membership and if enough people want something they do it. Such as the 8 shot revolver minor rule. IDPA seems to ignore membership requests. Also what is frustrating is they are not growing with new technology. I understand wanting to keep the money out of the sport to a degree but I would love to see a carry gun open division for guns slide mounted optics, lasers, weapon mounted lights etc. Basically if you can conceal it or if your military or an LEO you can wear it in your duty rig and its safe you can use it. That is how new technology becomes tested. IDPA seems to becoming a 1990's era SAS. As a lover of three gun I was excited about IDPA coming out with their version of multigun until I saw their rule sets. Its basically three gun lite and no one I know wants to play with those rules. Another disappointment.
Pat

[cclaxton]

I agree 100%. The "must shoot from cover" rule is a joke in practice at the clubs I've shot at. There is no slicing the pie, its lean out as far as you can and engage the targets. Also, "slicing the pie" may not always be the best thing to do in a real situation- shooting on the move may be a more sound decision, but thats a no-no in the world of IDPA. People also consistently crowd cover in IDPA. I've even gotten dinged for not practically dry-humping a barricade before.

The "tactical order" of engagement can be ridiculous at times. If I lean out and see a full silhouette 15 yards away, and half a silhouette 5 yards away, which should I shoot? Is there a correct answer? What if my sights just happen to be aligned on the "incorrect" target when I lean out? Would it be "more tactical" for me to break my aim on a threat, engage another target, and then come back to it?

The biggest problem I have with IDPA is that it claims to be more tactical/realistic/carry/self-defense focused and yet the actual rules(or their implementation/interpretation) are completely contradictory with actual good practice techniques.

At the end of the day the actual shooting and fundamentals are held to a higher standard in USPSA. IDPA focuses more on procedure and choreography.

First, we should all be as positive as we can about all shooting sports. Any shooting sport that gets people to practice in an environment where they are on the clock, in particular, helps build critical shooting skills. It is not IDPA versus USPSA, it's IDPA and USPSA. I shoot both and I recommend both, although I recommend new shooters start with IDPA because, in my experience, it is new shooter friendly.

I disagree with the statement that "must shoot from cover is a joke..., and lean out as far as I can....." First, I think will all agree it is best to shoot from cover, when available, right? And, the IDPA rules say that only 50% of your upper torso may be exposed to the target. If SO's are allowing people to lean our further than that, then that is a penalty. That doesn't stop competitors from leaning out too far. It also doesn't stop shooters from crowding cover. At the clubs I shoot, we specifically tell shooters not to crowd cover. But, the opportunity is there to use cover appropriately. It is up to the competitor to decide HOW to use it...that is a skill issue, not a game issue.

I also disagree with the statement "shooting on the move may be a more sound decision, but thats a no-no in the world of IDPA." That is factually untrue. IDPA encourages the design of COF that includes shooting on the move. Sometimes an entire stage can be shooting while moving, and the Classifier includes shooting while retreating and advancing. Why would you want to step out from behind cover to engage targets in the open and thus expose yourself to the threats?...this makes no sense at all. If you want to have a COF that has you move from one point of cover to another, and engage targets in the open, that is allowed.

When leaning out, it always makes sense to engage the first target you see. If you leaned out too far and saw more than that first target, then that is your fault, not the sport's fault. That being said, COF designs can be flawed or poorly executed. Every club/match has varying levels of skill at running matches. We are all still human and make mistakes. Setting up a COF so that it works well and doesn't tempt shooters to engage targets before their time can be challenging with some COF.

IDPA does not claim to be tactical training, nor combat training. IDPA encourages the use of cover and concealment, shooting priority, and skill development. HOW an individual decides to shoot IDPA is an individual decision. For those who conceal carry, IDPA allows shooters to develop those skills while on the clock, which induces stress. Use of cover and shooting priority is absolutely required for concealed carry situations.

What is tactics?...Tactics is choreography. It's learning to develop skills to know when to move, when to use cover, and when to engage targets. That mental gymnastics is exactly what we want people to practice. IDPA rules are not there to teach individuals the HOW, but to create an environment using cover and priority that allows those skills to develop.

In NO WAY is IDPA contradictory to the goals of concealed carry self defense.

From the perspective of shooting skills IDPA and USPSA hold the shooter to the same standard: accuracy and time, or shooting fast and accurately...they have the same goal there.

There is enough negative in the world. It is better to see the glass half full.
Cody

[cclaxton]

SLG and I shot a few times at a club -- doesn't matter which sport -- where the stages were often ridiculous and some of the shooters, even some of the match officials, thought they knew ten times more about shooting and guns than they did. When it became obvious that was business as usual at this club I stopped going. It didn't change my opinion of the sport. I just didn't like that particular club.

This is a good point. Also, clubs do change over time. New Match Directors can turn a poorly run match into a great one. The really good clubs usually have waitlists.
Cody

[rob_s]

For me at least it is not the club as the club shoots both and most of the same shooter shoot both. My opinion is that IDPA is not very responsive to its shooters. In USPSA they listen to the membership and if enough people want something they do it. Such as the 8 shot revolver minor rule. IDPA seems to ignore membership requests. Also what is frustrating is they are not growing with new technology. I understand wanting to keep the money out of the sport to a degree but I would love to see a carry gun open division for guns slide mounted optics, lasers, weapon mounted lights etc. Basically if you can conceal it or if your military or an LEO you can wear it in your duty rig and its safe you can use it. That is how new technology becomes tested. IDPA seems to becoming a 1990's era SAS. As a lover of three gun I was excited about IDPA coming out with their version of multigun until I saw their rule sets. Its basically three gun lite and no one I know wants to play with those rules. Another disappointment.
Pat

If you want IDPA to be more like USPSA, you're in luck. there's a gun game that is exactly like USPSA! It's called... USPSA!

[rob_s]

The bottom line is that all this back and forth and bitching from one side about the other is sad and pathetic. Especially so given that all most people are doing is defending the game they started shooting first (often only based on locale or internal club politics or a "feeling" at their first match, or what their friends were doing at the time, or any manner of other nonsense reasons that have nothing to do with the game itself) or the game they performed best in (which, again, has little to do with the game) and all of their yammering is really nothing more than defending their position, not any real intelligent evaluation of the "other game".

I shoot both games and listen to both groups whine and complain about their experiences with the other. In general, it just makes the individual whiner sound stupid, since so often their complaints are based in ignorance, inexperience, bias towards their first love, stubbornness, and entering into the "new" game with foregone conclusions and an agenda other than simply shooting and having fun. For every "tactical ted" shooting IDPA as ninja training there's some "gamer" wannabe shooting a $3k pistol in Open and finishing below half the field in Production. both games have their share of hypocrites and half-wits.

Which is why I just go to the match, stand off to the side smoking my cigar until called upon to paste or to shoot, and leave immediately after my last shot fired. Since I started doing that, my enjoyment level at both events increased exponentially.

[LittleLebowski]

simply shooting and having fun.

That's it for me and that's why I shoot. Personally, I think it's OK to have fun while shooting even if you're not tactical or if you aren't beating everyone.

[NETim]

What I WILL whine about is the folks who don't pitch in and help tape, paint, chase brass, whatever, to keep the shoot running smoothly.

This past Saturday morning, it was kinda cool in the indoor range and it didn't take long for many to drift back into the store, where it was warm. Naturally just a handful were left to keep the match running.

Then, when we thought we were done and just beginning to tear down, a guy came running in, upset 'cause he hadn't shot yet. Can't even make the effort yourself to keep tabs on things and get yourself in the queue?????

Some of us thought ahead and took advantage of today's technology and wore warm clothes. (I kicked it old school and wore a down vest.) If you can afford to buy a gun and ammo, I think you can afford to buy warm clothing.

And no, you're not special. You're unique, just like everyone else.

/end of rant

[littlejerry]

As for the most vitriolic complaints, they're often most appropriately directed at clubs or individuals, not the sport as a whole.

SLG and I shot a few times at a club -- doesn't matter which sport -- where the stages were often ridiculous and some of the shooters, even some of the match officials, thought they knew ten times more about shooting and guns than they did. When it became obvious that was business as usual at this club I stopped going. It didn't change my opinion of the sport. I just didn't like that particular club.

This is absolutely true.

I'm very critical of IDPA because of the bad club experience I've had. Unfortunately this was also my first intro to shooting sports and it really soured my mood towards them.

Then one day I tried USPSA on a whim. It was a ton of fun and I've been going back ever since then.

All of my opinions are based on 2 local IDPA clubs. It is easy to see how the sport could be fun with the right match director. Unfortunately your mileage may vary.