Question:Why IDPA/USPSA?

[ToddG]

Cold range. I know, I know, this discussion has been done, and I don't have any better solution for the masses with widely varied guns and holsters.

That's just it. The rules have to pertain to the first time competitor. Also, as a certain female competitor once pointed out to me, it's somewhat necessary when a shooter needs to sit down at the bathroom (given how a lot of competition gear/holsters work). Having to stop the match to clear one person to hit the head would get old fast.

Minor/Major scoring. I don't think 'Major' is nearly as powerful compared to 'Minor' as the scoring makes it out to be. Truly a relic of 1976.

Agreed. While it may not be the solution most desirable to the USPSA crowd, I'd also opine that if Minor scoring became the standard, the cries of "not accuracy oriented enough" would be harder to justify.

OTOH, I think it's legitimate to reward people for shooting guns that are heavier recoiling than the lightest-loaded ammo legal in the game. One thing we've talked about internally with regard to KSTG would be how to count liners: shooting minor, shots that break the line are counted as "out" while shooting major they'd count as "in." It's less than an inch difference (circumference) even for a .45 but it's something.

All in all I think USPSA has a pretty mature and clear set of rules that define the game as the players want it played.

[Mr_White]

That's just it. The rules have to pertain to the first time competitor. Also, as a certain female competitor once pointed out to me, it's somewhat necessary when a shooter needs to sit down at the bathroom (given how a lot of competition gear/holsters work). Having to stop the match to clear one person to hit the head would get old fast.

True. When I think of 'guns and holsters', I automatically think of guns that don't fire when dropped and holsters that don't just let the gun fall out. Then I remember that there are a whole lot of guns and holsters used in competition that I was not initially considering...

Agreed. While it may not be the solution most desirable to the USPSA crowd, I'd also opine that if Minor scoring became the standard, the cries of "not accuracy oriented enough" would be harder to justify.

Definitely, which is one of the overriding reasons I continue to resist shooting a Major scoring gun in Limited.

OTOH, I think it's legitimate to reward people for shooting guns that are heavier recoiling than the lightest-loaded ammo legal in the game. One thing we've talked about internally with regard to KSTG would be how to count liners: shooting minor, shots that break the line are counted as "out" while shooting major they'd count as "in." It's less than an inch difference (circumference) even for a .45 but it's something.

Yeah, it does seem unfair to get nothing at all for a harder shooting gun. That solution of yours is quite elegant. I really like it. I think it also comports with the current prevailing view of terminal ballistics, or at least with my own views.

[jar]

People confuse USPSA's 501(c)(3) status with the fact that it's member-driven. They're actually two totally different things. A 501(c)(3) membership organization can be set up in a way that no one but the Board has any control over anything. USPSA's 501(c)(3) status simply means they're not paying taxes on the money you send them while IDPA has to. It doesn't affect how much money the people working for USPSA make, etc.

While the distinction you make is valid and important, people conflate them because USPSA is both. The USPSA BoD is elected by the membership, and USPSA goes as far as to have an independent accounting firm run the elections to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. I shoot matches with my Area Director regularly and both the past and present director have listened to my opinion on rules along with the other members and carried it to the BoD, resulting in the change I supported being adopted. I was an IDPA member for 6 years and I never even knew who the IDPA BoD *was*. It's not on the website and I never saw any kind of organizational bylaws that even gave the structure of it.

[Corey]

Wow, 13 pages of contention now so I guess I better jump in. I am not calling anyone out directing anything at specific people, just giving my opinion on the two sports and the contention and seeming tribalism of some of the adherents. I started shooting IDPA about 2 years ago. I only shoot about 3-4 matches per year but I also shoot about another 6 or so per year of an “outlaw” IDPA style match that a local range does twice a month. I consider those more of a practice session as they are 3 short stages of indoor shooting geared more toward newer shooters. But they are inexpensive, close by, fun and give me a chance to shoot some steel and do some shooting on the move. I did shoot some USPSA back in the 80’s and enjoyed it a lot even though I wasn’t good at it, but until 2 years ago I had not done any type of competition shooting in about 15 years.

As I said, I currently shoot IDPA. There are some things I don’t like about it and in many ways I like USPSA better. So why do I shoot IDPA? The club that shoots USPA is about twice the distance from me as the club that shoots IDPA and time is a major factor for me right now. Overall the local IDPA club is a pretty good group and matches run smoothly. At my current skill level, IDPA is sufficiently challenging to be fun and keep me interested. I shoot the matches as a way to test and measure my own skill level, not to try and be a national champion or pretend I am getting tactical training out of it. In short, IDPA works for what I want to do right now. When it no longer works for me, I will switch to something else.

IDPA seems to have some subjective rules and rule enforcement seems to be very subjective. One of the first IDPA matches I shot had a stage with several target that you had to shoot from behind cover. I watched the RO give several shooters verbal cover warnings if they leaned out too far when shooting but no penalties were assessed. When I shot I thought I was fine because he didn’t give any warnings, but then I got multiple cover penalties for the stage. When I asked to RO why the other shooters got multiple warnings and no penalties while I had no warnings and multiple penalties his response was “you shot a lot faster than the other guys”. I was ready to get really pissed off and complain about it but then I reminded myself that it was just a local club match with nothing on the line, and I was just there for myself and to improve my shooting skill so it’s not worth getting worked up about it. I would hope that sort of thing would be unacceptable at a major match, but I find it worthwhile for now to shoot with this club so I play the game their way. Yes, there are a couple of tactical timmies at the matches that take the game and themselves way too seriously. They are also usually not very good shooters and there are only a few of them so they are easy to ignore, or laugh at behind their backs.

The arguments about which game is more “realistic” or “tactical” is something I honestly find silly. I got my start in shooting by getting heavily involved in what is probably the most unrealistic, contrived, artificial environment shooting sport there is, ISU 3-position smallbore rifle. I even made it to a fairly high level (got to spend a summer training full time at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs). I even had the special shoes and leather pants. The rulebook goes so far as to specify what kind of underwear is allowed. Compared to that sport, both IDPA and USPSA are Tier One uber-ninja tactical, but in the end they are still just games. They have rules, they keep score so play the game. If someone wants to play the game because they are competitive and want to win everything then they should. If someone else wants to play the game a certain way and with certain equipment for their own reasons (like wanting to test themselves with the equipment they normally use, or to work on certain skills that are important to them) then they should find the game that allows them to do that and go shoot. If you think there is a problem with certain rules and the game would be improved by changing them, then work within whatever system the organizers have in place to do that. If you think their game is stupid and the people who play it are fools, then find a different game or even start a new one. Life is too short to spend time arguing with people that they’re wrong for liking different things than you. Better to spend your time shooting the way you want to shoot than trying to convince someone else they are doing it wrong. Personally, would rather dry fire than have that argument.

One final thought on the politics of guns and shooting sports. The more people owning guns, learning to handle them safely, and enjoying them the better it is for all of us. I don’t care what game they play, cowboy action, registered trap, Olympic rapid fire pistol, 3-gun, or F-class; if they find a game they enjoy and play it we all win.

[Urban_Redneck]

My one, super legitimate gripe about IDPA is ESR division, it exists only to promote the sale of a single, $1000 revolver.

[PPGMD]

The rulebook goes so far as to specify what kind of underwear is allowed.

Are magic Mormon underpants legal?

[Corey]

Are magic Mormon underpants legal?

Yes. And I'm speaking from first hand experience.

[Drang]

...So why do I shoot IDPA? The club that shoots USPA is about twice the distance from me as the club that shoots IDPA and time is a major factor for me right now. Overall the local IDPA club is a pretty good group and matches run smoothly. At my current skill level, IDPA is sufficiently challenging to be fun and keep me interested. I shoot the matches as a way to test and measure my own skill level, not to try and be a national champion or pretend I am getting tactical training out of it. In short, IDPA works for what I want to do right now. When it no longer works for me, I will switch to something else....
One final thought on the politics of guns and shooting sports. The more people owning guns, learning to handle them safely, and enjoying them the better it is for all of us. I don’t care what game they play, cowboy action, registered trap, Olympic rapid fire pistol, 3-gun, or F-class; if they find a game they enjoy and play it we all win.

I normally eschew "+1" posting, but I suspect that Corey sums up the answer for most people in the first quoted paragraph, that is, they participate in the sport they enjoy the most, which may come down to shooting with friends and family, and possibly the "only game in town."

I think that the final paragraph is wisdom that all gun owners should recognize.

[ToddG]

Awesome post, Corey.

(the IDPA/USPSA one, not the underwear one)

[PPGMD]

Yes. And I'm speaking from first hand experience.

Doh, I should've checked your location before I made that joke.

Though I am curious why they would regulate a shooter's underwear.