What do you guys think of this Mike Lamb 'fighting shotgun' video??

[Chuck Haggard]

One of my gurus, Vince O'Neill, liked to demo using slugs out to the 200, and could hit at that range on demand. As noted, one has to put in the work.


Some of the guys on the video posted by the OP appear to need more time on the gun. A common "malf" I see when people run a pump gun is that they pull back with both hands hard and ride the recoil, which then causes them to have the action locked.


As Tom noted, the vast majority of shotgun incidents are a one round event. I am a big fan of rifles, and ARs in particular, but I have never seen one take a human being's arm off at close range. I have seen a 12 gauge do exactly that, with a single round.

[ST911]

Mike approaches the problem with thought, and his valuation of the variables meets his needs. Cool.

I can select my primary long gun, and have chosen a RDS equipped carbine. My shotgun is a specialty munitions gun. For my purposes, the carbine requires less effort to keep it running. Operating it, clearing stoppages, and reloading are the same basic processes as my semi-auto pistol, leaving less training and cognitive divergence. I don't think about ammunition selection variables. I can more effectively run a carbine one-handed than a shotgun, a decidedly two handed gun.

I think that when we talk about the shotgun, we also have to take into account whether it's a pump or SA, and what sighting system is employed on it. Those are significant variables in the flexibility, effectiveness, and effort inherent in a particular gun.

The capacity of the AR is an illusion. For CQB purposes, most trainers recommend a 4-7 round string per target engagement. A 30 round magazine is best loaded with 28, for reliability and insertion with a closed bolt. There are 4 7 round strings in a 28 round magazine. So, at house ranges the AR is a 4 serving weapon. My shotgun holds 6 servings.

Continuing this illustration...

My shotgun also serves 6 (5+1). The problem is that it's a serving size. One shell is ~16% of my capacity. In the event of a failure to stop or additional attacker, adding a round is ~33% my supply. 4-7 rounds from my 28rd loaded carbine is ~14%-25% of my ammo supply, but a single portion can be directed to alternate target zones or attackers.

I think capacity arguments can be overused, and can be a crutch, but aren't an illusion.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Just watched the video.
As an interesting aside, at the 2:47 mark he loses one of the live rounds from the RH sidesaddle due to recoil.

[Urban_Redneck]

Every once in a while I get the urge to add a mag extension and upgrade the sights on my trusty A5... so many projects.

[LSP552]

I like shotguns for the power but they are not the answer for everything and every body. I would never pick a shotgun for people shooting much past 15 yards. Can you hit someone at distance with a slug, sure. But that doesn't make it the best choice. Also, most defense shotguns will struggle to keep a full load of buckshot on a person at 25 yards.

I've spent a lot of time with a 14" 870s with lights, as it was an issue weapon to LSP SWAT and later to LSP across the board, replacing the 18 & 20" guns. For my personal use, I like short guns without tube extensions just for the indoor handling characteristics. I find the 20" guns with full tubes to be unwieldy, just a personal thing and YMMV. A 14" - 18" gun with side saddle and light is hard to beat for home defense or hunting close range bad guys, providing they don't have access to body armor.

I think the ammo switching capability between slugs and buckshot gets over done. I'm sure it has occurred in real life, but the shotgun use I've see has been with whatever it started with in the tube. I see the utility of having few slugs around and if you have time, cover and distance they might make an OK substitute for the lack of a rifle….up to a point.

The time for shotguns as the general issue long gun for law enforcement should have died long ago. There is nothing they can do that a good patrol rifle can't do as well, and there are things the rifle can do a shotgun can't. I see shotguns as a speciality use close range weapon against unarmored people. In that role they excel. Using it as a first choice for something else doesn't make sense to me.

One final comment. Pump shotguns are hard to run without LOTS of experience. Nyeti's comments are right on target. Anyone who has spent time on a law enforcement range will tell you they are the platform most susceptible to user induced malfunctions.

Ken

[Totem Polar]

Just watched the video.
As an interesting aside, at the 2:47 mark he loses one of the live rounds from the RH sidesaddle due to recoil.

Happened elsewhere, too. I noted a number of slugs loosened by recoil. Thing was trying to shed spare ammo visibly.

Pretty hard to argue with slugs for reaching into cars, as DB sagely notes. My only (amateur's) beef with pumps is that I find them hard to use unless I'm standing up, square range style. An AR practically runs itself, by comparison.

Wait, an AR does run itself by comparison. No small thing if your body positioning is in any way compromised.

Still, for raw power/confidence, there's just something about the shotty. I wouldn't argue with any professional's choice either way.

[Joseph B.]

Shotgunners always get me laughing with some of the crazy things they say.

Things like:

Nothing better for X-Y-Z situation/distance
It easy to use and anyone can do it
Don’t need training
Best ever home defense firearm
Don’t have to aim it
Most reliable home defense firearm
Just racking the pump will send the bad guy running who just kicked in your front door
Birdshot for inside the home
One buck is like shooting someone 9 times with 9mm
One hitter quitter
The psych-factor is devastating

I don’t know who Mike Lamb is, but dude needs to get some training on the shotty, as his video of him and his buddies shooting didn’t impress me at all. I don’t know what his “overseas” experience was or where/how he or whoever he was working with were utilizing a shotty, but from my overseas experience, outside of breaching a door and shooting wild dogs, it’s was more added weight that never gets used.

I personally don’t like the shotgun for home defense, it over penetrates, it’s harder to maneuver and transition between targets at close range, the recoil is ridicules, the limited capacity sucks, and reloading it takes forever. I absolutely hate when I see people (especially small framed women) at a gun store looking for a home defense weapon and get a Mossberg 500 planted in front of them, with stories of magical area weapon, no need to aim, its like unloading a 9mm pistol with each shot, Jesus uses it to defend the pearly gates, blah-blah-blahhh.

Can a shotgun be extremely effective for home defense? Absolutely, a lot of dirt bags have been killed by a shotgun. A lot of them have also been killed with pistols, rifles, knives, swords, baseball bats, etc, etc.

Anyway, all you shotgunners can now tell me how full of crap I am and how much I don’t know about the shotty.

[JV_]

I don’t know who Mike Lamb is

I didn't either, but this turned up in Google:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=413049

Mike Lamb: Force Recon USMC, deployments in Bosnia, Kosovo, West Africa, Middle East etc all in special operations.

Trainer for Magpul Dynamics, trained hundreds of special operations military and LE personnel over the last 15 years

[TR675]

Shotgunners always get me laughing with some of the crazy things they say.

Things like:

Nothing better for X-Y-Z situation/distance
It easy to use and anyone can do it
Don’t need training
Best ever home defense firearm
Don’t have to aim it
Most reliable home defense firearm
Just racking the pump will send the bad guy running who just kicked in your front door
Birdshot for inside the home
One buck is like shooting someone 9 times with 9mm
One hitter quitter
The psych-factor is devastating

I don't see anybody saying any of those things on this thread...

[Surf]

A couple of thoughts. I think those who are familiar with me understand that I do not like to be overly critical and I try to remain very respectful, but there are some interesting points that can be taken from the video and it is really a good learning opportunity. So with all due respect here are a couple more thoughts. People think the 870 or any pump shotgun is a simple weapon that anyone can easily pick up and be successful with in a defensive situation. Sure perhaps if it is a one shot incident then the lesser trained can be successful but if we need multiple shots, things can get interesting quickly under stress especially for those lacking in training. As others have mentioned the pump shotgun can be one of the more problematic weapons to run under stress. Just look at the video. There was not a single string of fire in that video that did not have an issue, starting off with the first opening live fire scene where Mike had an unlock issue twice, once after the first round and then again on the last round where he attempted to cycle, had an issue and then ended the string of fire instead. Throughout the rest of the video, every scene had one of the shooters encountering issues and I am not talking about rounds falling off the weapon. Of course they were there to train and practice and shit happens during training. And of course repetition via training and practice eliminate much of the issues, but those individuals in the video are clearly not new to firearms and have run shotguns prior to the video and have had formal training at some point in time with a shotgun. So imagine what a lesser trained or average homeowner would experience under stress.

As Mr. Haggard has mentioned the technique needs to be correct with a pump. It is a simple fix with correct repetition of proper training and practice but the natural instinct with the shotgun is not to use a push / pull bow and arrow technique with a relaxed shoulder pocket mount of the shotgun, but rather most untrained or lesser trained individuals will have a tight pull on the stock AND on the pump with a hard pull into the shoulder pocket, which causes what you see in the video in the failures to cycle the weapon correctly. Now if experienced shooters have that issue, imagine what you see from your average joe using a pump shotgun. Auto loaders are great but pick the correct one. I would not suggest an inertia fed shotgun like the one I carry. Of course 14" barrel, side saddle, surefire forend on a M1 Super 90 makes it look like the ideal HD shotgun, but it isn't for the average person being inertia operated. Now a good reliable gas / piston driven system would be more ideal, but still is not devoid of its own limitations that a carbine might be better suited for.

Bottom line, what is right for one person, may not be right for another. Training, skill, size, strength and needs of the individual vary greatly. Use what you are most proficient / effective with. Even more important perhaps is having a practiced plan, hopefully some formal training in defensive principles within the home or structures, knowing your layout intimately even under low light and knowing your angles, backstops, materials used in the construction and the effects of your choice in ammo from intermediate or blind barrier to terminal ballistics. No matter what your choice is, get good with it. Good like your life depended on it good. This aspect is often overlooked by the average shooter. Of course most here at this forum are probably not in the average shooter category either and many here seem to forget that from time to time when giving opinions. Myself included.

I can't quite manage this myself. I can get .20-.25 second splits with a Saiga-12 but only .40-.45 second splits with an 870. Not sure how much that matters in "real life," especially given Mr Givens' report of the relative rarity of having to deliver a second serving of buckshot on an enemy, but it has made me consider experimenting more with autos.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The efficacy that 1 round has on a target is not the only equation. Possible multiple targets or what if I missed the first shot. Just being ready to engage with a second round or follow up shots is not something that we abandon when using a shotgun, so we should be immediately cycling the pump shotgun with a correct technique and this should happen during the recoil phase, just like resetting a trigger on a pistol during recoil. You see way too many people fire the shotgun, get a second sight picture then run the pump. We will do any assessments with a loaded chamber. In other words if you look at the video, there are instances where the shooter seems to be assessing results, then cycling the weapon. This is obviously only a training issues but is critical to ingrain proper technique from the get go.

There are some shooters who make pump shotguns look like auto loaders. Speed and accuracy pretty much on par. It is always cool to watch a very good shooter run a pump.