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Thread: Manny Bragg and trigger control

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Slap is straightforward -- just like you probably do to Darryl, but on the trigger. Prep/pull is prep, followed by a slap. Prep/roll is take-up followed by rolling the trigger through without any staging, and prep/squeeze is prep/roll, also without staging, but slower.
    G, I choked on my coffee. If I get aspiration pneumonia, I am sending you a bill for antibiotics.

    Beyond that, clear as mud. My recall of Manny's trigger instruction was either slap on wide open target, or prep the trigger aggressively and then pull with a speed commensurate to target's difficulty.

    I think it should be mentioned that Manny runs 2.5 lbs triggers. I wouldn't hold it against him though, he is a great instructor and a nice dude.

    Wayne - I am not sure about instructor program, but I do know he had tac teams come down there.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Okay…..here comes "Tactical Timmy". Here is the issue. Consistent grip. Wayne does most of the "Marksmanship" side when we do classes because he is exceptional at teaching it, especially the "Grip" and "Trigger press" part. The key to much of this is grip. Most of your top level sport shooters have not only an exceptionally good and well developed grip, it is also VERY consistent. A perfect or near perfect grip does a ton to place less reliance on the sights and the press. Here is my problem as a "Tactical Timmy". When I assessed many shootings and watched in field performance of LEO's over a career, I found that their grips were often bad/horrific for a variety of reasons. Startle starts to fights, improperly fit pistols, poor holsters, lack of good practice, lack of consistency, unconventional positions, weather and environmental issues, clothing, obstructions, injury, use of multiple pieces of force equipment at the same time, multi-tasking with other equipment, etc. Essentially, grip being hugely important was also that factor that was also the first thing and most likely part of the equation to be sacrificed. To counter this in training, I emphasized "sights" and "trigger press" as a means to make up for the lose of proper grip. We also heavily emphasize trying to start from a low or contact ready vs. from the holster if at all possible in order to "fix" the grip before the fight starts.

    As far as the press itself. How much time do you have to dedicate to the press and where do you dedicate? I had (and personally these days this fits me as well) only a set amount of time and ammunition to impart on my shooters. That was devoted to trying to over-learn and making a trigger press an almost sub-conscious process that was optimized for the particular action of the shooters primary shooting platform. The reason for this is simple-during the shootings I was in, I couldn't really "feel" what my trigger finger was doing. I knew it had to go straight to the rear with a proper application, I could feel it moving, BUT I had very little true tactile sensation or input. It was probably there, but other parts of my brain were overriding it with more important inputs, most of which was visual (another plus of the LEM is that you can see your press and reset in your peripheral). So, strictly based on my own experience, I like to use a consistent optimal press for the action that is not grip dependent to work. Reasoning for me is that if my grip is simply stupendous for the incident, then I am REALLY good. If my grip is compromised for any reasoning, I can overcome it with press and sights. Trust me, I have seen the results of slapping the crap out of a trigger without a solid and consistent grip and it is ugly……especially if the sights are not used as well. The biggest issue with the LEM was kind of figuring out how to press it. This was the same with all the other actions we use. They all seem to have a means to best work their triggers respective to their individual traits. I try to optimize a single press that is best for what I am carrying and shooting. It is why I have to take a deep breath, and really consciously think when I use a students pistol to demo something or check sights when their pistol is different from mine.

    Overall, I get why many top sport shooters are able to slap a trigger very efficiently. I also get that you can optimize the type of press you will use for a specific target based on range and level of accuracy needed. For what they are doing, it is highly viable. For those who shoot nothing but "two way surprise matches" messing the slap method up can easily result in a very bad 2nd place finish.

    I get all that.

    When people are still getting lousy results under ideal square range training conditions trying to use "surprise break" or whatever they were previously exposed to, then I move to adjust their process. I've found that being told to "be surprised" actually builds anticipation... kind of the opposite of what was probably intended. I've seen lots of people mentally talk themselves out of making a good shot during that whole "I'm waiting with baited breath for that surprise! that I *know* is coming in the next six seconds". Sometimes getting people to just commit to the trigger when the sights say "Go!" removes that whole negative feedback loop.

    Eh, everybody's got their opinion.

  3. #13
    I think I know the answer to this but would like to clarify. Is Manny suggesting that each technique are unique and different from each other, or is it the same technique but vary in intensity of prep based on the shot difficulty?

    A wide open target requires no trigger prep and a very low prob shot requires a very hard trigger prep. As the difficulty increases, more prep is required. A wide open target calls for 0%prep/100%slap (let's call that slap). A high prob target calls for 25%prep/75%slap (call that prep/pull or maybe soft prep). A low prob target calls for 75%prep/25%slap (call that prep/squeeze or medium prep). A very difficult shot calls for a 95%prep/5%slap (call that prep/roll or hard prep). Are these trigger manipulation types (slap, prep/pull, prep/squeeze, prep/roll) just variations of a common technique as described above?

    Or, do each of these trigger manipulation types require unique techniques?

    Cheers,
    David

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JollyGreen View Post
    0%prep/100%slap (let's call that slap). A high prob target calls for 25%prep/75%slap (call that prep/pull or maybe soft prep). A low prob target calls for 75%prep/25%slap (call that prep/squeeze or medium prep). A very difficult shot calls for a 95%prep/5%slap (call that prep/roll or hard prep). Are these trigger manipulation types (slap, prep/pull, prep/squeeze, prep/roll)
    That's like, quadratic equations, dude.

  5. #15
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JollyGreen View Post
    I think I know the answer to this but would like to clarify. Is Manny suggesting that each technique are unique and different from each other, or is it the same technique but vary in intensity of prep based on the shot difficulty?

    A wide open target requires no trigger prep and a very low prob shot requires a very hard trigger prep. As the difficulty increases, more prep is required. A wide open target calls for 0%prep/100%slap (let's call that slap). A high prob target calls for 25%prep/75%slap (call that prep/pull or maybe soft prep). A low prob target calls for 75%prep/25%slap (call that prep/squeeze or medium prep). A very difficult shot calls for a 95%prep/5%slap (call that prep/roll or hard prep). Are these trigger manipulation types (slap, prep/pull, prep/squeeze, prep/roll) just variations of a common technique as described above?

    Or, do each of these trigger manipulation types require unique techniques?

    Cheers,
    David
    Does not a "slap" mean the trigger finger completely breaks contact with the trigger then slaps into it again with a running start? Unless running aforementioned 2.5 lb single action triggers; why bother with that?

    I know what snatching a trigger is for sure.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  6. #16
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    I just pull the trigger, smoothly. If it's a precision shot, I'll slow down to make sure the sights are nice and steady during the process. Past that, this is over my head.

  7. #17
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV View Post
    I just pull the trigger, smoothly. If it's a precision shot, I'll slow down to make sure the sights are nice and steady during the process. Past that, this is over my head.
    I think I'll give that a try and see how it goes.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  8. #18
    Site Supporter MDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    For those who shoot nothing but "two way surprise matches" messing the slap method up can easily result in a very bad 2nd place finish.
    I wasn't sure how I felt about this thread until I read this. Now I know how I feel: I'm not good enough to benefit from such fine distinctions. This jibes with my previous experience at Frostproof - Frank and Manny seem good at taking folks who shot pretty kittens good and making them better. Or maybe I just don't have the commitment to tackle their lessons aggressively enough. Either way, I'm going to keep going with my current baby steps approach...
    The answer, it seems to me, is wrath. The mind cannot foresee its own advance. --FA Hayek Specialization is for insects.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JollyGreen View Post

    A wide open target requires no trigger prep and a very low prob shot requires a very hard trigger prep. As the difficulty increases, more prep is required. A wide open target calls for 0%prep/100%slap (let's call that slap). A high prob target calls for 25%prep/75%slap (call that prep/pull or maybe soft prep). A low prob target calls for 75%prep/25%slap (call that prep/squeeze or medium prep). A very difficult shot calls for a 95%prep/5%slap (call that prep/roll or hard prep). Are these trigger manipulation types (slap, prep/pull, prep/squeeze, prep/roll) just variations of a common technique as described above?

    If it was that complicated, I'd probably just quit.

  10. #20
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    Yeah, put me in the "see ball, hit ball" camp. Although, I think some people do need permission to go faster and allow themselves coarser sight refinement and trigger presses for "easier" shots. I, on the other hand, sometimes take this too far and have been known to throw down some very impressive Charlie-Mikes on wide open targets about a yard away...

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