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Thread: Negligent Discharges

  1. #81
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    This is a great thread because it reminds us that we have to be careful, lest there be a big unexpected noise. I don't think you can focus on this too much.

    I bought a few 9mm inert snap cap dummys thinking I'd use them for Dry Practice. What I found was that the physical process of loading a "round", and then the vision of a "thing" at the top of my magazine when I chambered them, literally made my mouth run dry. I guess I'd become so ingrained at the concept of chamber checking and looking through the magwell for an empty hole. I just could not take it. So I ended up putting the inert rounds back in their packages and in my spares box.

    All my Dry Practice is in an area devoid of ammo, and that will never have ammo. I have only one gun that I dedicate to Dry Practice (USPSA gun). I chamber check it coming out of the safe. I chamber check it every single time it returns to my hands, even though I just put it down 2 seconds ago. I chamber check it when I put it back in the safe.

    I have a blue G19.5 for draws and manipulations. I still follow all four rules with it, even though intellectually I "know" it is a hunk of plastic.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. — J. C. Watts

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    This is a great thread because it reminds us that we have to be careful, lest there be a big unexpected noise. I don't think you can focus on this too much.

    I bought a few 9mm inert snap cap dummys thinking I'd use them for Dry Practice. What I found was that the physical process of loading a "round", and then the vision of a "thing" at the top of my magazine when I chambered them, literally made my mouth run dry. I guess I'd become so ingrained at the concept of chamber checking and looking through the magwell for an empty hole. I just could not take it. So I ended up putting the inert rounds back in their packages and in my spares box.

    All my Dry Practice is in an area devoid of ammo, and that will never have ammo. I have only one gun that I dedicate to Dry Practice (USPSA gun). I chamber check it coming out of the safe. I chamber check it every single time it returns to my hands, even though I just put it down 2 seconds ago. I chamber check it when I put it back in the safe.

    I have a blue G19.5 for draws and manipulations. I still follow all four rules with it, even though intellectually I "know" it is a hunk of plastic.




    RJ, I have a BarrelBlok that is now gathering dust. How I wish I had been using it a couple days ago. If you've never tried it, I recommend it and feel pretty sure you'd like it.

    Talk about force of habit! I posted too soon. RJ, if you're interested, pm me where I could send it.

  3. #83
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 11B10 View Post
    RJ, I have a BarrelBlok that is now gathering dust. How I wish I had been using it a couple days ago. If you've never tried it, I recommend it and feel pretty sure you'd like it.

    Talk about force of habit! I posted too soon. RJ, if you're interested, pm me where I could send it.
    No worries; I appreciate it but I am good. Might make a good item for a Karma thread tho.
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. — J. C. Watts

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Sounds sympathetic contraction. One hand squeezes suddenly (usually unexpectedly) and the other does so unconsciously.

    Unless trigger finger discipline is hard wired in (and sometimes even when it is hardwired in) the principle of affordance means your finger will likely wind up on the trigger.

    This is also why people are directed not to try and catch a dropped gun or to hold onto a gun if you trip or fall.


    https://www.policeone.com/archive/ar...2h6XBiLr9Ie5j/

    https://www.emerald.com/insight/cont...4683/full/html





    An “affordance” refers to the possibility of an action on an object; Guns are designed to be shot. Therefore the optimal grip on a gun is designed for your finger to fall naturally on the trigger when you grip the gun. This is why trigger finger discipline requires conscious effort or training to a level of unconscious competence.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_De...veryday_Things

    Lucky > Good.


    HCM, lucky is, indeed >>>>>> good! Thank you for the links you provided. I finally took the time to read them. Although the startle/stimulation in my experience was different from the ones examined, the result was the same. IOW, those officers knew they had live ammo in their firearms, I should have, but did not. Their actions were not out of place as they were performing their sworn duty. I was reaching for a poorly designed, falling backstop. The trajectory I originally posted was not accurate. First, it was a 135 grain .38 SPL+P Speer Short Barrel, fired from my M&P340. It first went through the plaster wall approximately 10' away. The round passed through that wall's other side (same plaster), opening up a much larger hole, finishing by putting a divot in another plaster wall approximately 20' away and falling to the floor. It was within 5', on a diagonal line - albeit 8'+ high, IOW, "high right" of the temporary workstation where my wife has been working during these COVID days. My 2 gun "collection" is now at a local FFL. I'm constantly fighting off the urge to bring back at least the 340. I'm finding it hard to read anything that isn't about firearms.

  5. #85
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    @11B10

    I am not suggesting you do this, it’s just an idea.

    Have you discussed pulling your guns from consignment, and putting them in a Safety Deposit Box in your wife’s name only?
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. — J. C. Watts

  6. #86
    Pago Fatuus critter's Avatar
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    It was a cold, dark day in the month of Dumbassery back in 1994. My 'dry fire room' is in the basement, no windows, underground on three of the four sides, three sides are backed by concrete block walls, with the 'open' side some 60' from the exterior brick wall. The wall I toward which I practice is a support wall. Behind that is a cavity under the front porch followed by a second concrete block wall followed by dirt.

    I had recently acquired my Sig P229 .40. That was far from the first semi-auto pistol I had owned or handled, and by that time I had tens of thousands of safe dry fires under my belt. I cleared the weapon, and just about at that precise moment I hear John Wayne's voice, "Gow ah-head and tryyy it..." or something very similar. So I did...

    Of course the deafening boom, and the ear-ie ringing silence along with the typical "WTF??" brain freeze followed while watching little whirly wisps of glass dust and smoke rise from the TV. I looked down and could plainly see the ejected round from the chamber beside the loaded magazine there on the table. Double WTF??? As you probably have already guessed, I had 'cleared' the chamber prior to dropping the mag. I don't actually remember doing that, but it's the only explanation which fits the evidence.

    The worst part of this is I shot low left and missed where Miniature John Wayne previously stood by a full two to three inches. No live pistol ammo has entered this room since that day. My current pistol safety check involves clearing the pistol at the table outside the room door, and locking the slide back prior to entering.

    No sympathetic response, no "accident" attributable to anything other than sheer brain-lapse stupidity.
    Last edited by critter; 03-27-2020 at 09:28 AM.
    God is not on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best. - Voltaire

  7. #87
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    A buddy was shooting his Sig MPX at a local outlaw USPSA style match. After he shot the last stage, the RO said "If finished, unload. If clear hammer down. Flag" He dropped the mag, racked the bolt, and on hammer down, BANG. Both he and RO had a WTF look on their faces. Apparently, the round in the chamber didn't eject, and re-chambered. Possibly my buddy didn't rack the action fully. No one was hurt, because the gun was aimed safely downrange, but it was a match DQ and my friend was quite upset with himself for having done something unsafe.

    That incident underscores how assumptions, shortcuts, and habits can cause accidents.

    I have come to approach clearing a gun with an attitude of suspicion. That's how I holster as well.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  8. #88
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    I recall Mas Ayoob telling the class in LFI-1 the following story. (My best recollection)

    A LEO was dry firing and had decided he was done. He loaded his service weapon and the phone rang. He took the call and spoke on the phone for a while. After finishing on the phone all he remembered was that he was dry firing before the call. Having totally forgotten he loaded he decided to do one more dry fire. There was a fatal consequence for his wife in an adjacent room.

    Perhaps because of that story my in home dry fire targets are on a basement concrete foundation wall. All guns are always considered loaded therefore the safety rules always apply. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. Know your target and what is beyond it. Know the ballistic capability of your weapon system.

    Allow me to talk about something that didn't go bad but could have. A few years ago my son living cross country called me to ask my opinion about his roommate's AR. I don't remember the actual problem. My son switched to FaceTime video because he wanted me to see what was happening. Before I could say anything or stop him he chambered a live round in the AR. This was while in the living room of house multiple guys were sharing. There were people present in the room I could see in the background including girlfriends.

    I said "STOP what you are doing now!" The first thing I had him do was unload and verify the AR was clear. Then I told him to look at the primer of the round he had just chambered. I said "see that dimple on the primer? NOT A GOOD IDEA!" It was a bit of an Ah Ha moment for him. He had no idea that the floating firing pin in an AR will cause a inertia dimple on a chambered round when the bolt slams home. I knew he and his buddies were buying reloads. No guarantee that round has the correct hard primer. Plus he was inside in a room with other people with a rifle he has told me has a problem. I told him what he did was way too risky and dangerous. "This is exactly what dummy rounds are for!" I've never heard of an AD from dripping the bolt on an AR but what he was doing was not safe.
    Last edited by JohnO; 03-27-2020 at 10:04 AM.

  9. #89
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    I remembered this morning that I had an ND in 2016, during Tac Con in Memphis, documented here:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-Training-Scar

    "I attended TacCon '16 in Memphis recently. The range, during the conference, is "hot", meaning you are expected to be at the line chambered and cocked. This was the first time for me in such an environment.

    On Friday, I took Paul Sharp's Recoil Control session (it was excellent, by the way). After my first mag, I needed to reload. Under the direction of my shooting partner, "reload", I heard the statement, but, my brain heard "unload and show clear."

    So, I reloaded with a fresh 15 round mag. Then, like dozens of times before, as I had been training as a USPSA-style shooter, I reflexively raised the pistol up and pulled the trigger, as I normally do prior to holstering an empty gun.

    Problem was, it was not empty. It went 'bang'."
    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. — J. C. Watts

  10. #90
    don't gaslight me, bro' blues's Avatar
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    I've been around a couple of knuckleheaded LEO NDs in my years. It's inexcusable especially when there are reminders everywhere but it also means that try as we may nobody is perfect.

    @11B10 I understand your dismay but don't be overly hard on yourself. You've owned the mistake. Now it's time to repair what you can with your wife and move on. Take whatever time is required until both of you can reach a comfort level regarding firearms in the home and on your person. If it can't be rectified, then assess the situation at that point and take the course of action you mutually agree to.
    Dare to speak the truth

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