Practicing for on demand performance

[feudist]

I'd like to read more about this before jumping to too many conclusions.

First, as BaiHu said, until someone has the fundamentals correct it's wasteful to jump around in practice.

Second, I'd like to see exactly what was measured and exactly what the differences were in the practice routines in the "basketball free throw" study. Were people just throwing one attempted free throw and then moving on to other things immediately, or did they simply practice free throws for a short while as opposed to for hours on end?

Third, as has been touched on tangentially, how does boredom -- which is very subjective -- play into all of this? Would someone who isn't bored after 100 draws to a 8" circle be less well served by this than someone who stops paying attention after three draws?

Yes, BaiHu hits on a good point.

The general consensus is that a level of "Automaticity" should be attained to progress to a higher skill level.

That said, the basketball tests were typical double blind, college freshman participant tests. So, there was no prior skill development.

The testing showed the benefits of "Spacing" or "Forgetting" repetitions. I don't think they were factoring boredom as a consideration.

Todd, the real trick is getting "100 draws to an 8" circle" executed mindfully, with full attention to each rep. This practice scheme helps because you

have to refocus your attention on every evolution.

The next trick is designing a practice regimen that incorporates sufficient practice trials in conjunction with interleaving other skills sufficient to activate

the random effect.

This is not a training shortcut. It is about ROI on training time.

Google random and variable practice.

This falls(I think) under the rubric of "Deliberate Practice" as posited by K. Anders Ericsson. He came up with the 10,000 hour, 10 year rule for Elite

performance.

Deliberate practice:

Is designed to improve performance

Is repeated a lot

Feedback is continuously available

Is highly demanding mentally

Is hard

Requires explicit, well thought out goals.

[Cheap Shot]

I think that's what these are for:
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/product/tacost/

Might throw that on the old Christmas list.

That was the first thought I had also

Very interesting subject feudist. I'm looking forward to how the discussion evolves

[GJM]

Third, as has been touched on tangentially, how does boredom -- which is very subjective -- play into all of this? Would someone who isn't bored after 100 draws to a 8" circle be less well served by this than someone who stops paying attention after three draws?

I think it is important to recognize that different people learn best in different ways, and figure out what learning style works best for you.

For me, a drill with a lot of repetition, and a penalty such as the drill ending for a single mistake, it not a learning style that causes me to achieve the best results. Those rules are analogous to instructing a college age boy to only ask out girls in college that you knew would say yes, and game over if even one said no. Or, only start a business that you could guarantee would be successful. I know that my school and work life would have been a lot less fun if I followed those rules.

I think we share a common goal of achieving the best on demand performance possible, but there may be a number of different methods to get there.

[feudist]

An inexpensive book that covers Random/Variable training is "Fundamentals of Motor Behavior" By Jeffrey T. Fairbrother.

It's on Amazon (I got mine used for 10.00).

Magill's books are textbooks in the 40-60.00 range.

I've got three editions of those

[ToddG]

That said, the basketball tests were typical double blind, college freshman participant tests. So, there was no prior skill development.

The testing showed the benefits of "Spacing" or "Forgetting" repetitions.

One question I have: were the test subjects doing one rep of free throws, doing other things, and then coming back to free throws? Or were they doing 10 minutes of free throw work (as opposed to 60 minutes or whatever)?

I don't think they were factoring boredom as a consideration.
Todd, the real trick is getting "100 draws to an 8" circle" executed mindfully, with full attention to each rep. This practice scheme helps because you have to refocus your attention on every evolution.

I think that's interesting from a number of angles. It would be insightful to ask top athletes if they have that "mindfulness" issue when they drill. Perhaps one thing that separates people who achieve excellence is their willingness/ability to stay focused on a drill?

Deliberate practice:

Is designed to improve performance

Is repeated a lot

Feedback is continuously available

Is highly demanding mentally

Is hard

Requires explicit, well thought out goals.

I'm with you on all those things.

I think it is important to recognize that different people learn best in different ways, and figure out what learning style works best for you.

Absolutely. A corollary, I think, is that -- just like with shooting techniques -- there are lots of ways to practice that work; finding the one that is most effective (which probably includes most enjoyable & motivational) for you means you'll practice more and stay focused better.

For me, a drill with a lot of repetition, and a penalty such as the drill ending for a single mistake, it not a learning style that causes me to achieve the best results.

I'd argue that depends completely on what "results" you're looking for, and what percentage of your training involves such drills.

[feudist]

Todd,

One rep, then another skill drill.

The result is known as contextual interference and it is an extremely general finding in studies, in verbal-cognitive and motor skills, across all skill levels and age groups.

It challenges conventional wisdom by showing that poorer practice performance results in better learning-as shown in retention tests.

There are 2 hypotheses why:

Elaboration: shifting from one skill to another forces the learner to become aware of the distinctiveness between skills, making them more meaningful in long term memory. This facilitates retrieval at a later time.

The second is spacing, or forgetting. The space between reps forces the reconstruction of the action plan for skill execution.

Retrieval of the motor skill action plan is execution. Random practice essentially provides more repetitions in retrieval, ergo better execution cold.

In Brian Enos' book, he talks abut guys who would shoot he Steel Challenge courses of fire until the were hip deep in brass. They would end up with these amazing runs-in

practice.

He uses a metric he calls LOHF-Limit of Human Function.In this, he shots a drill many times until he stops progressing. That "best run" then becomes his current LOHF.

Then, he would track shooting those drills cold, and see what his on demand performance was. There was quite a difference, at his elite level.

[GJM]

Absolutely. A corollary, I think, is that -- just like with shooting techniques -- there are lots of ways to practice that work; finding the one that is most effective (which probably includes most enjoyable & motivational) for you means you'll practice more and stay focused better.



I'd argue that depends completely on what "results" you're looking for, and what percentage of your training involves such drills.

The result I am looking for is best, on-demand performance. Probably the same objective you have.

If I can do something once or twice in a row cold, that seems like a pretty good indicator of ability to perform on the street (tundra) or in a match. I am not sure how repeating the same thing five or ten times in a row relates to the ability to perform on demand, cold? Now if I was training factory workers to perform the same repetitive task all day, every day, I would think repetitive training, with a once and you are out penalty, might be appropriate.

Even in my dry fire practice, where I work things like draws and reloads with a bunch of repetitions, I tend to break things up -- which is a more productive learning style for me.

[Totem Polar]

The second is spacing, or forgetting. The space between reps forces the reconstruction of the action plan for skill execution.

Retrieval of the motor skill action plan is execution. Random practice essentially provides more repetitions in retrieval, ergo better execution cold.

This is, for me, the key component. Struggle is the process by which we build more myelination for a skill. I've found this concept ("spacing", above) incredibly valuable in coaching "elite athletes of the small muscles" (classical musicians) at the collegiate level. Point being, it doesn't matter how many times you can play, say, a difficult passage in a Bach violin sonata correctly in the practice room, it only matters how well you can retrieve the skills and execute them cold. I'll go further and say that a player who can retrieve average playing skills well under pressure will give better concert performances than a bionic practice room player who fails to drill *cold* retrieval.

In short, you've gotta be able to do whatever skill you're investing in right the first time, so best to practice lots of "first times" as opposed to thousands of "second times" over the same length of training.

JMO from a different perspective.

[feudist]

This is, for me, the key component. Struggle is the process by which we build more myelination for a skill. I've found this concept ("spacing", above) incredibly valuable in coaching "elite athletes of the small muscles" (classical musicians) at the collegiate level. Point being, it doesn't matter how many times you can play, say, a difficult passage in a Bach violin sonata correctly in the practice room, it only matters how well you can retrieve the skills and execute them cold. I'll go further and say that a player who can retrieve average playing skills well under pressure will give better concert performances than a bionic practice room player who fails to drill *cold* retrieval.

In short, you've gotta be able to do whatever skill you're investing in right the first time, so best to practice lots of "first times" as opposed to thousands of "second times" over the same length of training.

JMO from a different perspective.

That puts it very succincly, thanks.

[Mr_White]

In Brian Enos' book, he talks abut guys who would shoot he Steel Challenge courses of fire until the were hip deep in brass. They would end up with these amazing runs-in

practice.

He uses a metric he calls LOHF-Limit of Human Function.In this, he shots a drill many times until he stops progressing. That "best run" then becomes his current LOHF.

Then, he would track shooting those drills cold, and see what his on demand performance was. There was quite a difference, at his elite level.

I need to dig up the book again, but wasn't his cold performance about 85% of his LOHF practice performance?

I don't have much to add to this discussion, but again, thanks for starting it. I am really enjoying considering all the comments that have been made.