Am I too picky? Gun Handling Standards

[Wendell]

I like this particular video's general message:

[Trajan]

Why do you need to take the gun from them in the first place? Typically when I've done ball and dummy as a student and as an instructor we just take the mags. Then again we've always had either shooting benches or students with holsters so that we haven't had to take the guns from them to load a magazine etc. Even if we didn't have those, I'd still rather have the student maintain possession of the gun, slide open while I load the mag with snap caps etc. and either give them the mag back or put the mag back in myself.

If that works for you that's fine, I'm just curious as to why you take the gun.

There is a variation of ball and dummy where your partner takes your firearm, and you face up range. Then your partner either loads or unloads it. I've seen that due to that short break period, people are more likely to flinch. It plays a little head game with you. YMMV.

[Joseph B.]

I think this is a reasonable demo of how an instructor may have to use different handling to instruct, or give visual pointers.



I don't see anywhere that Todd Jarrett was being unsafe. Would anyone here who has actually spent time instructing pull Todd to the side and say "you should use better handling during your demo", if you did would you not expect a peepee growing out of your forehead look?

The James Yeager video:

1) dude is a colossal moron IMO... Although I am sure he has some good information to put out, I've seen too many bad things to even equate him as a credible trainer. His call to arms video was evidence enough, but there is hundreds of videos of him being foolish and irresponsible to also back up my opinion.

2) I don't have to rack the slide or run the action everytime I reload, although his opinion, I think its just BS and a waste of a chambered round.

3) press check has been around for a really long time, his "you shouldn't do it" is flat wrong and any respected trainer teaches it. A press check is a must if you are starting a course of fire, a comp stage, or heading out the door with a weapon intended to defend your life.

4) always keep the gun loaded, always! Dryfire much? Clean much? Hand a weapon to another person much? Loaded weapons in the class room much? Stupid on many levels.

5) Grip, watch Todd's demo in the video. Not only that, again how do you hand a weapon to anther person, are you just goingvto maintain a firing grip and point it at the receiving person? Action open, grip towards the receiver. Again more than a few reasons to not grip the pistol with a firing grip "every time".

6) a reason for a speed holster has already been addressed with the "cop about to go hands on" post. Although I will admit I think I do not support being quick to get back in the holster.

The overall point here is there are no real absolute anything when it comes to this stuff until you get to the basic safety rules. Most professional instructors will agree that adherence to the safety rules are a must. Butvwe will disagree methods, technique and process all day long. If you are going to be an absolutest and dismiss the idea that there are more than a few ways to get things done, than you are in for a hard road, and can expect to not learn much when attending A through Z trainers. I mean the whole reason to seek out other trainers is to learn a different way than what you know, etc.

Anywho, good luck, I've burned-out my advice/opinions for this thread.

[Slavex]

Well I'll admit to not holding a gun by the grip all the time. There are lots of time where I do in fact setup a students gun for a drill, especially new shooters that are having difficulty with their gun (weak hands etc). I'll grip it safely, and take my time when doing so, and then hand it back to the student. There are also times where when I am demoing I'll hold the gun in a variety of ways, to show certain parts or features of the gun, or how I want them to do something from a different point of view. There are lots of times where holding the gun other than by the grip, in a shooting way, is appropriate, in my opinion.

[_JD_]

I think this is a reasonable demo of how an instructor may have to use different handling to instruct, or give visual pointers.



I don't see anywhere that Todd Jarrett was being unsafe. Would anyone here who has actually spent time instructing pull Todd to the side and say "you should use better handling during your demo", if you did would you not expect a peepee growing out of your forehead look?


[snip]

The overall point here is there are no real absolute anything when it comes to this stuff until you get to the basic safety rules. Most professional instructors will agree that adherence to the safety rules are a must. Butvwe will disagree methods, technique and process all day long. If you are going to be an absolutest and dismiss the idea that there are more than a few ways to get things done, than you are in for a hard road, and can expect to not learn much when attending A through Z trainers. I mean the whole reason to seek out other trainers is to learn a different way than what you know, etc.

Anywho, good luck, I've burned-out my advice/opinions for this thread.

Do rest assured that it's not falling on dead ears and your input is much appreciated.

Well I'll admit to not holding a gun by the grip all the time. There are lots of time where I do in fact setup a students gun for a drill, especially new shooters that are having difficulty with their gun (weak hands etc). I'll grip it safely, and take my time when doing so, and then hand it back to the student. There are also times where when I am demoing I'll hold the gun in a variety of ways, to show certain parts or features of the gun, or how I want them to do something from a different point of view. There are lots of times where holding the gun other than by the grip, in a shooting way, is appropriate, in my opinion.

No doubt.

Again, this was not in a class nor was this a paid session of any sorts. We were just going over some stuff together and and I just threw that out there for their consideration. We have a relationahip where we bounce ideas off each other etc. If there were a reason for gripping the gun as such for a particular demonstration where the grip was required, sure no problem....I offered my opinion and when asked why I thought it better to do it otherwise I get blasted as being a snob.

My deal on this is that if you wouldn't handle the gun like that when it's loaded and there's no reason to specifically grip the gun that way that you should grip it proper and deliberate. I told dude this and said something to the effect of hey if that's the way you want to do it that's fine more power to ya rock on with it but I'd do it this way and here's why.. I don't think that's being snobbish or elitist.

Learning from other instructors works both ways. In the end I'll probably be a little "lighter" in my constructive criticism and my acquaintance will probably be a little more purposeful in their gun handling.

Thanks all.

[ToddG]

One question comes to mind: is the offender a bullseye shooter or did he shoot bullseye in the past? I've seen plenty of bullseye shooters grip their pistol that way so they could establish their strong hand grip a certain consistent way.

In general, if someone is following all the cardinal safety rules my opinion of "professional" versus "unprofessional" handling goes beyond any one discrete facet. Someone who established that wrap-around grip while being casual about where the gun was pointed or while coming across as absent minded would look bad. Someone who did it like he's done it a million times before for a specific reason (e.g., the 2-man ball & dummy drill) wouldn't set off my radar at all.

Personally, I use a normal grip (2H, SHO, or WHO) when handling a gun unless circumstances dictate otherwise. But looking at it from the other side, if an instructor has a gun in his hand while talking isn't it less threatening/dangerous if he's not holding the gun in a firing grip? Also, switching from a 2H or SHO grip to a WHO grip is less likely to result in the gun getting dropped using the wrap-around as opposed to a traditional WHO firing grip.

I don't see myself changing how I do things (using a normal firing grip whenever practical) but as long as an instructor's overall demeanor and handling are professional & safe I don't think I'd get worried about something like this.

[_JD_]

Thanks Todd,


Just to clarify I was not trying to imply that "YOU HAVE TO USE THE GRIP AT ALL TIMES!" only that when available for use, the grip should be used as it is intended to be used.


As to the instructor, no bullseye experience that I can recall other than perhaps having trained with some bullseye types years ago.

Overall his handling is very good and I've told him this in the past, this was just one little tid-bit that seemed off to me and wasn't meant to start a huge argument. Just a small improvement in their handling that could be made....I don't have an analogy to explain the demeanor just kind of a hey have your thought of this? Had I known it would have resulted to name calling I would have just kept my damn mouth shut.

[JV_]

Had I known it would have resulted to name calling I would have just kept my damn mouth shut.

Yea, it would seem his reaction was more of a disappointment than his potential gun handling faux pas.

[Wendell]

...There are lots of times where holding the gun other than by the grip, in a shooting way, is appropriate, in my opinion.

Two different clubs I belong to actually require it, in situations where a holster is not available and the firearm is being moved from (and to) the tables to the firing line. And, personally, I agree with it.

The idea, I think, it to maintain muzzle control while maintaining a clear-to-all appearance of your (non-shooting) intentions.

[ToddG]

Yea, it would seem his reaction was more of a disappointment than his potential gun handling faux pas.

Exactly. An instructor who gets angry over something like that needs to take a step back and evaluate his motivation for teaching.