Splitting attention between the trigger and front sight

[Mr_White]

I actually sort of visualize a string running from my eyes through my arms to the trigger, which is kinda weird and esoteric, but it works for me.

Cool. My visualization is of a red laser between my right eye and the target. I don't always do it but it is helpful sometimes, especially so when working any variety of press-out. It reminds me where I want the gun to be and helps me put the gun on the spot I want to hit instead of some other spot. I imagine it in binocular vision, so I see a solid red dot on the spot I want to hit (imaginary dominant image) and a left-angled view of the solid beam (imaginary nondominant image.)

Interesting, guys, thanks for the feedback. I find that if I don't pay close attention to the trigger pull, I snatch badly as I pay attention to the sights and squeeeeeeze NOW! Probably my trigger finger is not well enough educated and needs more mental baby-sitting than yours...

That's the part you need to work on (based on what's been said in this thread.) I've done this two ways and benefited from both I think.

One, the conventional way: when you are paying attention to those sights, instead of allowing (easier said than done, I know) your mind to say "NOW", feel pleasure at the fact that you've aligned the gun well enough to hit. Make seeing a sight picture that says you will hit your truest goal, the one thing you want, and a source of actual joy. I think this might happen naturally if you are emotionally invested in your shooting performance. And continue improving the sight picture as you continuously add pressure to the trigger. The gun will fire when everyone is ready. By everyone, I mean you, the trigger, and the sight picture. Not succumbing to the mind saying 'NOW' is to have visual patience. And that's what I am hearing you need, based on your statement only of course. Be process-oriented, not result-oriented. To say 'NOW' is to be result-oriented. To have the discipline to continuously improve the sight picture and add pressure to the trigger is to be process-oriented. The process will lead to the result, so focus on the process and know the result will be there. Focusing on the result doesn't get the result as well.

Two, the unconventional way: turn traditional marksmanship and what I just said on its head, and practice pressing the trigger 'NOW', and without moving the gun. I think this is a natural progression of pulling the trigger faster and faster in that wall-type drill we are discussing. Eventually you will be stroking through the trigger quickly enough that it amounts to 'NOW.' Some really tight combinations of space and time lead to 'NOW' being the only way to effectively engage a target. Sometimes you screw up and finish the trigger press 'NOW' even when you know better. Cultivating a better 'NOW', abrupt trigger press mitigates the error when you do it even though you shouldn't, and might allow you to engage something that is otherwise outside of your skill envelope. It's just another way to attack the trigger press.

[JeffJ]

I've found that slow fire groups have helped me with visual patience. Especially at further distances. My theory is that I have time to realize and appreciate the wobble zone, and therefore have a better idea of what an acceptable sight picture for the given target looks like. Having hard-wired that image without time pressure helps me to recognize it at speed which has cut down on the NOW! response.

[MDS]

I've found that slow fire groups have helped me with visual patience. Especially at further distances. My theory is that I have time to realize and appreciate the wobble zone, and therefore have a better idea of what an acceptable sight picture for the given target looks like. Having hard-wired that image without time pressure helps me to recognize it at speed which has cut down on the NOW! response.

Thinking through this a bit, I agree with what you're saying, and I probably need to do more of what OAK's saying in order to reap more benefit. This is deep stuff for me, I have to experiment and try to understand what you guys are saying better.

Man, I love finding flaws in my shooting, since the fix invariably involves more shooting! =)

[JeffJ]

Have you read Enos' book? I've got a degree in philosophy so my thoughts on books are skewed, but I think he does a good job of explaining the mind - vision - physical link in shooting. He is absolutely writing about completion shooting and some sections just won't apply to what you may want to do, but the pure shooting aspects are really good.

[Mr_White]

Thinking through this a bit, I agree with what you're saying, and I probably need to do more of what OAK's saying in order to reap more benefit. This is deep stuff for me, I have to experiment and try to understand what you guys are saying better.

Man, I love finding flaws in my shooting, since the fix invariably involves more shooting! =)

Maybe you will notice what I have noticed. Or maybe you will notice some other things. Or both. Maybe what I've tried will help you too, or maybe you will need to find something else. The real point is to be aware, to notice, to notice what you see, what you feel, what the gun and the sights tell you and anything else too. It will be your experience to have and you can learn much from it. That's where shooting is truly an exercise in awareness.

At first I was shocked when I read Enos' book, the foreward by Leatham specifically, because he said that the way he and Enos shot, their technique, etc., constantly changed. I was shocked because I would have thought that they had figured out the best way - by this time they were champion shooters. But he said that was not the case, that they tore down and rebuilt technique, studied, thought, dreamed shooting, for years on end, and where they were a year before was not where they were a year later.

Then I could see that it's the awareness and gymnastics that constitute all that struggling that really matter. It's hard to go wrong if you do the work, and wallow in the work when you're not doing it.

[MDS]

Have you read Enos' book?

I have, a while back. I should probably re-read it, I'm sure I'll get more out of it.

[MDS]

It's hard to go wrong if you do the work, and wallow in the work when you're not doing it.

Nicely put. In my own experience, as you truly master a given subject, it's hard to tell who's the master and who's the subject - mastery masters the master. It helps that the "work" of shooting is a whole lot of fun.

[ToddG]

My vision gets messed up when the front sight is super close to the aiming point, even if it is a blank white wall with no aiming point, and I really prefer paying attention to the sight picture, which is a more complete view of gun-target alignment than sight alignment alone with no target present. I know a lot of people get a lot of benefit from the regular wall drill, but that's how I do it for me.

I've always had a similar problem with the Wall Drill and needed to close one eye to make it work. It was when you finally made me realize I was converging and accommodating at different distances that I realized why: my left eye was trying to converge on a nonexistent point in the nonexistent distance. I, too, then started doing all my dry fire with real targets that were at least a few feet away.

Mario, the best advice I can offer is that if you need a lot of mental effort for both sights and trigger for a certain shot, then you need to slow down enough to make that happen. A lot of people shoot "easy" targets and "hard" targets in practice (like, say, an A-zone at 5-7yd and a 3x5 or 2" at 10-15yd) and never really work in a progression between the two. They develop two distinct speeds -- I've even heard some competitive shooters talk about having two distinct trigger pulls -- instead of simply building up a dependable skill that can be called upon on demand regardless of target.

You definitely want to reach the point where your trigger manipulation is happening preconsciously. That's why I've always disagreed with instructors and shooters who say trigger control is 99% of shooting (or whatever). Aligning your sights and keeping them aligned is what matters... the visual aspect is far more important in my opinion. (which isn't to say trigger control is unimportant, of course)

[GJM]

Mario, the best advice I can offer is that if you need a lot of mental effort for both sights and trigger for a certain shot, then you need to slow down enough to make that happen. A lot of people shoot "easy" targets and "hard" targets in practice (like, say, an A-zone at 5-7yd and a 3x5 or 2" at 10-15yd) and never really work in a progression between the two. They develop two distinct speeds -- I've even heard some competitive shooters talk about having two distinct trigger pulls -- instead of simply building up a dependable skill that can be called upon on demand regardless of target.

I was definitely guilty of this, in part because my practice fell into speed at 7 yards (FAST, Bill, etc.) and precision at 25 yards (300). Once I started doing more USPSA type practice, I realized I had a big opportunity to learn how to shoot a range of targets sizes and distances. That is a great thing about going to matches, as someone sets all that stuff for you.

I think Mario's topic also relates to my issues with the SA part of the DA/SA trigger, as that short trigger is very different from what I am used to, and more subtle in shooting a range of targets.

Finally, if I get the energy, I will try to more fully articulate a question about working the trigger. (Gabe, I tried to call you on this yesterday, but missed you.) Another PF member, Taadski, called me on something I said in Gardone's training journal. Apparently Stoeger and other GM types believe it is most efficient to present at the same speed for most every target, and then vary how the trigger is pressed based on target difficulty. I was pretty resistant, especially DA, but did some practice and found I was fast and consistent presenting direct, and only then getting with the trigger.

[Slavex]

every now and then (and actually in class 2 weeks ago) I break away from doing nice "don't move the front sight" trigger presses and work on hammering the trigger as badly as possible and seeing how fast I can go without moving the sights. My attention is still focused on the front sight, but I am now purposely putting some effort into slapping, hammering, yanking or whatever, the trigger, and keeping the sights aligned as best I can. Then when I fall back into making purposely accurate shots I find the trigger pull is less of a focused act. What's truly weird is that a lot of the time my groups don't change much at 7yds over my fast, accurate based attempts. And I seldom yank one of the group when doing it that way, unlike when I am trying to not yank one out of the group.
Like others have posted, when I start to think about the trigger I lose the front sight and the shot goes off my intended POI. Ken Hackathorn and I had long long talks on our drives home last year about "trigger control" vs "sight control" but I still think it's sight control that's most important. Don't disturb the sight when pulling the trigger.