I always thought it interesting that H&K added a firing pin lock when they revamped the AR.Originally Posted by TCinVA
And while the AR may not be absolutely drop safe, it is practically drop safe, especially if you aren't chambering and rechambering the same round.
I'd bet that a dropped 870 would "let go" way more often than an AR. One of the "tweaks" to the police model 870's is an enhanced sear spring to make this less likely.
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
Could you expand on this?
I appreciate everyone's info. It's still crazy to me that nobody else has wanted Ar15s and Shotguns to be drop safe. I get that for most uses there is time to work the action on a long gun. But I would still think being drop safe would preferable. Plus the fact that in order to be safe by having an empty chamber, you have to handicap how much ammo you have in the weapon. I'd also prefer to simply swipe a safety (which is usually very ergonomic) versus working the action because given a choice in a gunfight I'd much rather have the element of surprise.
Anyways, somewhat back to topic, work was too crazy today to get a chance to call LTT, hopefully I can tomorrow. I want one of these bad boys because it has all the mods/accessories I'd want with the push of the easy button.
Isn't that somewhat dependent on what trigger group is in the AR? (I thought the safety certification of the Geissele SSA was due to some other aftermarket trigger group letting the hammer go when the rifle was bouncing around in a truck?)
The AR has a floating firing pin. When you chamber a round with one and then eject that round, it is not uncommon to see that the primer has been dimpled. Many military long guns have floating firing pins, hence the practice of using harder primers in military ammunition than in typical civilian ammunition.
The uneducated will often chamber a round, then eject that round and put it right back on top of the magazine. Repeatedly chambering the same round over and over again can certainly produce a primer that is more sensitive to impact and reduce the ability of the system as a whole to tolerate a worst-case scenario drop.
Most often what that practice accomplishes is destruction of the priming compound in the primer, rendering the round inoperative. The act of being forced into the chamber can also lead to burs and dings on the case which can hinder extraction. I never chamber the same round more than twice.
It seems that handguns get dropped more than long guns. Handguns have to be extracted from a holster with a single hand on the gun and put away with a single hand on the gun, increasing the chances of it being dropped. Long guns tend to have both hands involved in controlling the weapon if it is in shooting shape, or there is a sling there to assist.I appreciate everyone's info. It's still crazy to me that nobody else has wanted Ar15s and Shotguns to be drop safe. I get that for most uses there is time to work the action on a long gun. But I would still think being drop safe would preferable.
The primary vector for long guns going off without a finger on the trigger isn't from being dropped, but rather comes from the trigger hanging on something when they are slung or being manipulated. The weight of a loaded AR or shotgun is typically significantly more than the force it takes for a trigger to be pulled...so if the AR you are slinging hangs the trigger on the corner of a magazine on your chest rig the weight of the gun alone is sufficient to press the trigger. Same with a shotgun.
Long guns tend to live in cases or on racks and so even if they were drop safe it would still be a pretty bad idea to keep one stored with a round in the chamber because of what happens when people start tugging at weapons. There have been a number of people killed when they pulled the barrel of a long gun into their center line in an attempt to pick it up or retrieve it from a case, the trigger has hung up on something, and the gun goes off.
As a result, it doesn't seem like anyone sees a pressing need to redesign the guns for those purposes.
The HK416 John referred to has a firing pin safety in it, but to the best of my knowledge that was necessary to prevent out-of-battery firing episodes under certain conditions.
If you are in a position to be proactive with a gun in your hand, you've already got it loaded and ready to go. Most home invaders are not picking locks and quietly sneaking into houses. They usually use speed and violence of action to gain entry and spread through the structure. This involves kicking down doors, smashing out windows, etc. Once inside they spread out usually with weapons already drawn. In those circumstances it's unlikely that your working of the weapon's action is going to put you at a meaningful deficit against your attackers.Plus the fact that in order to be safe by having an empty chamber, you have to handicap how much ammo you have in the weapon. I'd also prefer to simply swipe a safety (which is usually very ergonomic) versus working the action because given a choice in a gunfight I'd much rather have the element of surprise.
If you are on a tac team serving a warrant or heading on a high risk call, your gun is already loaded, so the point is moot.
The right practice with a long gun is to chamber a round the second you pick it up for serious use. If there is any part of you that thinks you may need the weapon, you get it ready to go. To quote Tom Givens, don't go looking for trouble unless you expect to find it.
3/15/2016
Indeed.
An un-fucked-with milspec trigger is probably going to be OK if it hasn't been beat to shit.
But people do as much dumb shit to AR triggers as they do to Glock triggers. I have "milspec" and Geissele triggers in my guns but I still don't regard them as drop safe.
3/15/2016
With the 1301 you can load a full 7 (or 5 w/o the extension) and then load one more onto the lifter, giving you 8 rounds with an empty chamber. It's a bit fiddly to do it (it's much easier with an M4) and I advise practicing with dummy rounds first, but it's not bad once you get the knack of it.
And it's equally possible to do a full ghost load of 7+1+1 but that's Mall-Ninja-stupid as it leaves one in the chamber with a cocked hammer.
To be safe you'll still need to rely on running the bolt first but you don't have to give up a round to do it.
This has been my experience as well. I understand why ARs aren’t considered technically “drop safe.” But operationally, I saw numerous loaded M16/M4 weapons dropped and even blown out of vehicles and helicopters. None of them “went off” as a result.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ety-discussion
Since we’re on the subject of quickly getting our 1301’s into action, has anyone purchased this under bed gun safe, or something similar, perhaps better?
https://www.secureitgunstorage.com/h...afes/fast-box/
I’ve been considering it for my 1301... 🤔
On a standard AR, the sear is part of the trigger. The trigger's movement is blocked by the safety so the sear's movement is blocked by the safety. With in-spec parts, firing on drops won't be tied to the sear giving way. This is in direct contrast to the 870 where the mechanical safety only prevents trigger movement and does not tie directly to the sear.
As already noted, the firing pin in the stock AR/M-16 is free floating. If you have sensitive (non Mil-Spec) or high primers and some incredibly bad luck, it is conceivable to have an ND on drop - or more specifically, dropping the bolt. I put it in the same range as winning the lottery - sure it can happen but the odds don't make it likely.
All bets are off if you start modifying the stock parts or using after market triggers. Some aftermarket triggers, such as the Geissele SSA specifically mention "The SSA is safety certified by Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center."
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
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