"Be sure of your target..." in competition

[TR675]

The fun thing about Tom's course, other than all of the above, is that it is run indoors in low light approximating a parking lot or garage at night. So you'll see a couple of mannequins dressed in street clothes at 25 yards, and one of them has a gun and one of them doesn't, and you can't really see them that well, but you still need to shoot one of them, and in the right spot...and if you hit the wrong one you're automatically guaranteed a spot at the bottom of the pack.

It forces you to juggle accuracy, flashlight management - if you like - and decision making, and if you've never done anything like it before it's eye-opening. Lasers, correctly used, rule on this course.

[_JD_]

You could go with18 targets, limited Vickers,1 Rd each will allow for 9 no shoots. Put out a big mess of targets so it's hard to see which are which and use the no shoot hands instead of the common X's so you really need to view the entire target. You arrange the targets so that shoot thrus on threat targets will hit no shoots and count. Shooters then need to ID targets and get a good angle for clean back drop. The only issue with this is shoot thrus on threat targets and determining if a target was engaged twice etc. I suppose you could run it Vickers and score best 1 on the target etc to eliminate the multiple engagement issue.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[cclaxton]

You could go with18 targets, limited Vickers,1 Rd each will allow for 9 no shoots. Put out a big mess of targets so it's hard to see which are which and use the no shoot hands instead of the common X's so you really need to view the entire target. You arrange the targets so that shoot thrus on threat targets will hit no shoots and count. Shooters then need to ID targets and get a good angle for clean back drop. The only issue with this is shoot thrus on threat targets and determining if a target was engaged twice etc. I suppose you could run it Vickers and score best 1 on the target etc to eliminate the multiple engagement issue.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

This is a great idea. I was kinda visualizing a similar arrangement, but the 1rd each gives you enough targets. I was also thinking of using color to throw them off: Make some threat and non-threat targets the same color, let's say Police Blue, and some a different color, let's say Orange, and put contrasting hands on the non-threats.
Thanks,
Cody

[jetfire]

You could go with18 targets, limited Vickers,1 Rd each will allow for 9 no shoots. Put out a big mess of targets so it's hard to see which are which and use the no shoot hands instead of the common X's so you really need to view the entire target. You arrange the targets so that shoot thrus on threat targets will hit no shoots and count. Shooters then need to ID targets and get a good angle for clean back drop. The only issue with this is shoot thrus on threat targets and determining if a target was engaged twice etc. I suppose you could run it Vickers and score best 1 on the target etc to eliminate the multiple engagement issue.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

It's against IDPA rules to intentionally position a no-shoot behind a threat target so that it would get hit with shoot through.

[rob_s]

When I started my carbine matches.... 8+ years ago I guess... I originally wanted any failure to neutralize a threat target (FTN) or hit on non-threat (HNT) to be a DQ for the stage and no score reported. People went friggin bonkers, even the "I'm not a gamer, I just do this because ninja" guys. Taught me a lot.

We still have a scoring system whereby the target is either "neutralized" or not, instead of points,which some people still get worked up about.

I would think at if you're going to have blind or target ID stages you should also be scoring neutralized/not-neutralized and no score for FTN or HNT.

[rob_s]

It's against IDPA rules to intentionally position a no-shoot behind a threat target so that it would get hit with shoot through.

Which is something else that is a signature part of our carbine matches that we are known for.

[rob_s]

You could go with18 targets, limited Vickers,1 Rd each will allow for 9 no shoots. Put out a big mess of targets so it's hard to see which are which and use the no shoot hands instead of the common X's so you really need to view the entire target. You arrange the targets so that shoot thrus on threat targets will hit no shoots and count. Shooters then need to ID targets and get a good angle for clean back drop. The only issue with this is shoot thrus on threat targets and determining if a target was engaged twice etc. I suppose you could run it Vickers and score best 1 on the target etc to eliminate the multiple engagement issue.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

Pat McNamara has a stage like this. You can read about it in his book or see it in his course.

In his version the targets are numbered and you pull a numbered card and then engage that target without hitting any others.

Louis Awerbuck also has some drills that are similar, and in his case the shooter is moving, and sometimes so are the targets.

[wilco423]

When I started my carbine matches.... 8+ years ago I guess... I originally wanted any failure to neutralize a threat target (FTN) or hit on non-threat (HNT) to be a DQ for the stage and no score reported. People went friggin bonkers, even the "I'm not a gamer, I just do this because ninja" guys. Taught me a lot.

We still have a scoring system whereby the target is either "neutralized" or not, instead of points,which some people still get worked up about.

I would think at if you're going to have blind or target ID stages you should also be scoring neutralized/not-neutralized and no score for FTN or HNT.

Were/are you using some kind of reactive target?

[rob_s]

Were/are you using some kind of reactive target?

In the very beginning we were. We had targets that would allow you to put a balloon behind either the body or the head, which would drop when the balloon was popped. The problem is that as soon as you how the match to a larger group of people the reset time just becomes unmanageable.

I'd love to have targets that would require 2-3 shots to drop and that are cost effective and easy to reset, but AFAIK they just don't exist.

[ToddG]

There is no truly realistic, time pressure target ID possible in a game that really equals the complexity and stress of a "real" PID. As soon as time becomes a factor in the game, people want to rush and complex PID becomes just another part of the game. Take time out of the equation (like having a ridiculously long PAR) and people can afford to take unrealistic amounts of time to assess targets.

IMHO, the best practice for PID comes from force-on-force, and particularly FOF that doesn't use projectiles (blue/ASP type "guns," SIRT, etc) so you can see facial expressions and eye movement.

Getting people from "shoot everything" to "shoot threats only" as a mental step is fairly easy. Getting to realistic PID under time pressure & stress is much different.