Lives of Mentally Ill, Police Collide

[JFK]

I read an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal this morning and I wanted to get the input of our friends on the job.

Here is the link although I believe it is behind a pay wall.

http://on.wsj.com/1aejgiA

There is so many topics to discuss in this article, and so many "ifs" it was hard for me to narrow down a discussion topic. The article is about Law-enforcemnt professinals and mental health advocates believe deadly clashes between the ill and police are on the rise. Here are some excerpts:

Regular police training teaches officers at a crime scene to employ a force continuum, which starts with the fact of the officer's presence and, depending on how the subject respons, moves through verbal commands and hand controls and then to the use of a nonlethal device like a baton or Taser... ...As soon as the subject has a weapon though options to deal with the situation rapidly decrease... ...

About half the nation's population lives in places where officers don't receive training in dealing with the mentally ill... ... nearly a fifth of the adult population, experienced mental illness in the previous year, ranging from anxiety to extreme schizophrenia. That suggest an officer, on any given cal, is reasonably likely to encounter a mentally ill person.

The article then goes on to depict a situation where an officer had to shoot a mentally ill person with a knife.

..."I remember praying the whole night saying, 'God, don't let him die,'" the officer said. He did die though, setting off a civil lawsuit, a year of limited duty, an investigation and emotional turmoil. The Suffolk County prosecutor ruled the shooting was justified and the civil case was decided in the officer's favor. Still, if faced with the same scenario, he said, "I'd hesitate before I'd ever do it again."

So what do the LEO's think of this. Is training lacking like they say? How as a LEO and not a psychologist how are you expected to diagnose and react? Does this present moral, ethical, or personal dilemmas? There also seemed a tone in this article that put the burden on the officer to not use force in a deadly situation if the person is mentally ill. Is the true? How do you know, until it is too late?

Discuss

[jlw]

First, I reject wholeheartedly the traditional notion in the continuum that an officer's presence is a use of force.

Second, the false idea often put forth by such continuum is that they must be progressed through.

We teach use of force "options", and the personnel should choose the requisite "option" to handle a given situation.

With all of that out of the way, the number one item that result in massive criminal justice spending and case loads would be to have a functional mental health system. Mental health care would also positively influence substance abuse issues as the substance abuse is often a self treatment for mental health issues, and both are leading contributors in many criminal acts.

I'll also admit the the "blue" solution is often to slap cuffs on a mental issue, drop it off at the jail, and drive way thus solving the immediate "blue" problem. Folks that spend any time around jails see the rest of it.

I've fought, as I am sure others here have, many a person with a mental issue who was having an episode that once said person received proper care was harmless. Unfortunately, I have also dealt with one such person who got passed around the system doing six months here and six months there for criminal trespass and the like until he hacked up an officer with a butcher knife. His mother had been to many of his previous hearings begging for the state to put him somewhere to deal with his mental issues. It's been over five years and the criminal trial still hasn't begun because they can't determine whether or not he is competent to stand trial.

[ToddG]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.

Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

[rsa-otc]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.
Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

EXACTLY

[MDS]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.

Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

What's tough for a lot of people to swallow is that even when every system is working perfectly, you're still going to get plenty of tragic outcomes that coulda/woulda/shoulda been avoided "if only" some small detail had been different. When considering things like the intersection of violent crime, mental health, and the justice system, we need to look at it from the perspective of the totality of those systems, instead of simply "making sure this sort of thing never happens again." Many (most) folks find it easier to do something - even if it's wrong, half-assed, and makes things worse - than learn to live gracefully with the fact that nothing's perfect. Ideally, we'd be able to routinely come together as a society and make real, positive, incremental improvements to our social machinery... but then again, ideally I'd have a flying ranch with herds of rainbow unicorns and outhouses made of solid gold...

[Chuck Haggard]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

[cclaxton]

One thing the Shoot/No-Shoot class at the NRA taught me is, even as a concealed carrier, I should have a less-lethal option available. For me that is Mace/Pepper Spray. But LE's have even more latitude, such as Tasers, Stronger Mace/Pepper, etc.

While I completely empathize with LE's on the street, I also think *too many* LE's react as though there is only one lethal alternative. I am not saying they should be "liable" for not using a less-lethal option, but I do see it as an obligation when there is time to react and assess. When there is no time, then you do what you have to.

I am not trying to second-guess anyone here or there. I am just saying why bother carrying less-lethal options if you are not trained to react and use them automatically in the same way you are trained to use a firearm?

CC

[Tamara]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Yeah, I'm kinda at a loss how it's supposed to sting less if I get shot or stabbed by somebody because they were genuinely crazy as opposed to just because they were a run-of-the-mill dirtbag?

"Oh, you're off your meds? I'm sorry, I'll holster up. Slash away, bro."

[MDS]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

As someone outside those fields, I can believe that it's much more broken than it seems to be to me. What I'm not seeing is any real-world discussion about making it better. Are there viable efforts out there that aren't really visible to us cake-eaters?

[rsa-otc]

NJ just over the last couple of years authorized tazers for a limited number of officers. Only so many per active officers per shift etc. Really stupid guidelines IMHO. If I'm going to need it I going to need it now and can't wait for the one guy on shift that has one to show up.

We have seen here in the state where mentally ill subjects have ignored the OC spray and continued the fight even when the officers are being effected by it. In one case in our local town the subject was OCed in a bathroom and still was uncontrollable. The offices started to be overcome by the OC and backed out. The subject ended up dying and the department was sued. I didn't hear what the outcome of the suite was.

As Todd pointed out the person my be Mild Mannered Clark Kent on his meds or not in an episode, but off their meds or during an episode they become Superman, and if in that case the subject becomes a lethal threat then lethal means may be needed to handle it. The fact that they are mentally ill doesn't give them a free pass. And during that moment in time the officer doesn't have time to figure out how to bring then down.

It's tragic but it's life. Life isn't always perfect or picturesque. Some times it's just plain ugly and painful and that's no ones fault.