Given your choices, P30 all the way.
Given your choices, P30 all the way.
went to the range yesterday. I tried out the P30, 1911, and a HK45C
P30:
hard to beat, really like it
1911:
I can't seem to get a good grip, it's like the grip saftey is right in the way. I tried going underneath it and I tried riding it.
HK45c:
I hated the compact feel.. the bottom of my hand felt like it had no grip. It was accurate but the slide felt like it hung after each shot.
I think as of now it's 1911 vs P30. Concealibility?
I would go P30, as ammo is half the price of 45 and you will get to practice more. I find the P30 just as easy to conceal as a 1911.
Don't purchase any pistol right now.
Instead, get some extensive training. Learn how to run a pistol. Learn how to live with a pistol on a daily basis. Learn how to care for a CCW/duty pistol. Learn what characteristics you desire in a pistol.
Once you get some basic instruction, get some additional more advanced classes. EAG, Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, ITTS, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla/Redback One, Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught on shotguns. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.
After you know a bit more about pistols, have not picked up any bad habits, and are somewhat competent, get a pistol of your choice.
"Try out" handguns by renting one at the range or borrowing from a friend, not by purchasing one...
Most people are far better off using a quality 9 mm handgun like the ubiquitous 3rd gen G19, since for CCW and most urban LE duty, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9mm--easy to shoot one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets in the magazine. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a 1911...
There are several circumstances where going with .45 ACP makes sense:
-- If you get issued free .45 ACP ammo at work and not other calibers
-- If you already possess a large cache of .45 ACP ammo
-- There is a strong likelihood you will have to shoot through laminated glass or wood intermediate barriers and .40 S&W is not an option
-- You are issued a pistol type that works best in .45 ACP (ex. 1911) or clearly shoot best with such a pistol
-- You live in a state that has asinine laws illogically restricting magazine capacity to 10 rds or less
As has been stated many times before, it is best to pick ONE type of handgun and truly learn to master it. Purchase 2 or 3 identical handguns--one for duty/CCW, one for training, and perhaps a third one to sit in a lock box at home for use as a back-up or to arm a family member if necessary.
So to summarize, after you have taken some classes, purchase a pistol you feel works well. Train with it for a while to prove its utility for you. Then purchase one or two additional identical ones and you never have to purchase any more pistols. Simple.
Pick whichever fits your hand and that you shoot the best. 9mm is cheaper than .45, but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.
I hear a lot of people say that but I've personally never seen 9mm half the price of .45ACP. I see a box of 50 9mm for about $15, and a box of 50 .45ACP for about $20.Originally Posted by John Ralston
First of all I want to say that I appreciate and respect the knowledge of the folks on this board. Just by reading here and in Todd's blog I have learned much. And DocGKR is one of the posters that I go out of my way to read because I know that even if I'm not interested in the topic, more often than not there is going to be something I can take away from his post. But this post is an example of a prevailing attitude on this board(and this type of community) that I have come to grow weary of.
There are many folks in this community that are either professional/semi-professional shooters or well funded hobby shooters, and while that provides for a great knowledge base, it can make for some hard to fulfill priorities.
One thing I have learned in my life is that every professional thinks that their profession is the most important. I had a dentist suggest to me one time that I should be brushing my teeth for 15 min. If we all did everything that every doctor, lawyer whatever recommended we wouldn't have any time or money left to do anything else.
While I'm sure that there are some decent classes the guy could take at the local gun club many of the more intermediate to advanced classes cost $400 and up and adding ammo, it's not uncommon to throw down more than a grand per class. And you generally bring your own gun. How are you supposed to learn to live with a gun without a gun? How much money should he throw down to make him knowledgeable enough to buy? How many months? Years? should he learn before buying a gun? This amount of time and money investment is simply unrealistic for the average citizen.
And while he hasn't said so what if he needed protection right now? I had a girl on another forum come on and ask about personal protection because she had a stalker. Would you have told her to spend untold amounts of money and time before buying protection?
The truth is that you should have a minimum amount of training in gun safety and some specific training on the features of your pistol before you become a gun owner. I would be extremely surprised if anyone here followed the method put forth by DocGKR before buying a handgun.
Not to say that I don't understand where Doc's coming from. Owning a handgun is a big responsibility, and there is enough information out there both good and bad that buying a handgun without more background is likely to result in mistakes being made.
But I think that is likely unavoidable. Guns are much like cars(except that cars are much more dangerous) there is a point at which you don't know enough, but you are never going to learn more without doing it.
I think a lot of folks on this board would do well to imagine what they might suggest to an average blue-collar citizen who wanted to protect themselves, but had a family to feed and bills to pay, and a job to go to, and didn't perhaps want to take up firearms as their hobby.
One of the best examples of this that I have seen in this community is the 99 drill. Something that can be done on both a time and money budget.
As I've said all respect given to you Doc, as well as the other folks on this board. But I had to get that off my chest.
*edit*
As to the OP's question:
I detect a want/need dichotomy going on in your post.
It sounds like you want a .45 acp. But you haven't found a whole lot to support that decision. You prefer a metal gun, but besides it being "legit"(which basically just means cool) there isn't a whole lot of reason to get one. You also want someone to tell you it's alright to get a smaller gun so that you can conceal it.
I think you could read your own post as if someone else posted it and make your own decision.
Here is my suggestion:
If you can rent these guns to try them, do so. Rent them and pick the one you like the best. If you can't rent them go to a gun store and hold them in your hand. Manipulate the controls, rack the slide, dry-fire it if you can, hold the weapon as if you are going to fire it. I have gone so far(with the clerks permission) to holster the weapon in a belly-band holster to see how it would feel while carrying. Then buy the one you like the best. Do not listen to the clerks opinion on the firearm.
Buy it knowing that you need to get at least some beginner training. Buy it knowing that it isn't perfect and that there are things with all firearms that are compromises. Buy it knowing that down the road you may discover that you would like something different.
You can conceal whatever. If you see Todd's blog picks he is concealing an hk45 under a polo shirt. And while I've never seen him in person he looks like a fairly average sized guy. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the higher in quality of holster that you pick the less you will likely need to alter your wardrobe. I dress around a USPc .45. But by dressing around I mean I buy pants that are in inch larger in the waist and shirts that are 1 size larger. I still wear t-shirts.
I replaced the finger extension on my magazines with a flat buttplate. I think I bought them off of midway for 6 bucks or something like that.
The only advice I will give as to specific firearms is that I would steer clear of the 1911. The 1911 is generally much easier to run well if you can act as your own gunsmith, which is something that new owners are not usually capable of doing. If you really want a 1911 get it as your second gun.
Last edited by Rains on Parades; 06-15-2011 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Made post somewhat helpful.
My take on, um, Doc's take.
I have spent many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on sucky guns. I've also sent thousands of rounds down range while re-enforcing various bad shooting habits- jerking my trigger, ect. My CCW class was a revelation- that not only did I know less than I thought I did, I had a whole lot of crap to unlearn and relearn. Not just mentally, but also in my muscle memory.
Ponder the average trip to the average range. How many crappy, unsafe shooters have you seen? How many targets look like they were used to pattern shotguns? How many myths and misconceptions (the old ‘drag them inside’ for instance) have you heard regarding self defense?
A post on a different website got me thinking- what would I do if I could start from the beginning… yet knowing what I know now? I would not get as hung up on equipment, and would try to focus more on building skills. I would have been better served with an old Model 10, a few good classes, and disciplined, purposeful practicing. Instead, I chased fads and fashions with different guns.
But that’s just my take on things.
I totally understand where Doc is coming from. And I have had some of the same issues as you Joe(with regards to how I used to think vs how I think now).
But a handgun is not a drag car, a handgun is a pick-up truck. A drag car is a leisure activity, you hone your craft of both building and driving and before you get in one with that kind of power you had better be a damn good driver, or you could end up all over the tarmac. But if you never achieve that ability. So what, don't drive the car.
A pick up truck though... Well if you have to haul something, you better have a pick-up truck. Get the best training you can, be safe. But that stuff needs some hauling.
*edit*
You may have spent all that money and time on the wrong stuff practicing the wrong habits. But you had a gun. And maybe it's arguable whether if shit went down if you would have come out on top. But there are lots of folks out there that were not professional shooters that saved there own and others lives because they bought the gun.
I like metal guns and I like polymer for different reasons ( strength, durability, weight ).
I do like the .45ACP, I like the bigger bullet but I understand that while it may be marginally better the 9mm can hold about twice the capacity and it's cheaper.
I've had a chance to shoot these guns at the range. I kinda get put in the same situation, not being able to decide
as for smaller gun, honestly I'd like to be able to conceal a full-size handgun comfortably. I like full size handguns. I hate how compact models feel in the hand. I know Todd has concealed an HK45 but he himself said it was big and not that "invisible" feeling like the P30. Everything I've read has told me the HK45 is really just too big for me to conceal just wearing a t-shirt. I'm not a big guy myself, smaller than Todd.
I kinda transitioned my full-size .45 "want" to the 1911, because it was a full-size weapon that people said it could be concealed fairly easy. If it was just as easy as the HK45, I would of bought the HK45 and not looked back.
I thought about the HK45C but even if I were to do the same as you and get a flat magazine baseplate it would make my grip hang off even more. it feels unproportional, normal slide with a small grip.. less than the P30..
I like the P30 because it feels proportional. I don't feel like I'm holding something too small to get a grip on. I like LEM, the idea of no safety's to interfere with my grip and if faced with a situation I wouldn't have to disable my safety like others. I think it would be easy to holster by keeping my thumb on the hammer making sure I'm not snagging as I went in. It would weigh less, have about double the capacity, and like said about 9mm is cheaper.
I feel like the 1911 would require more work, although it would be a good learning experience. I've got into things more because I had to work on them ( cars for example ). I don't want something unreliable but I don't see the 1911 as unreliable like some claim. I think it just requires more attention than other modern designs.
Reply With Quote
