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Thread: Multiple people shot at White Settlement, Texas church

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    https://www.instagram.com/p/B6t7U3XH...d=ha3d2npndxte

    IG post from ColionNoirs profile showing the aftermath. Viewing not recommended for those with high blood pressure.
    This shooting has the gun world in two camps:

    Ecumenical snuff films
    Analytic philosophy

  2. #142
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    The folks on the security team at my church are pretty observant and generally suspicious of people that look out of place (a little too suspicious sometimes, in my opinion).
    One thing that a lot of people who've lived a generally conservative, responsible life in mainstream America aren't good at is telling the difference between people who are just a little different and people who are just off. Live among weirdos for awhile and your spidey sense gets sharper.
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    Not another dime.

  3. #143
    Member Gray Ghost's Avatar
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    I am in charge of security for my church of about 200. This incident hit close to home, and I appreciate the analysis. Here are my takeaways so far:

    1) Identifying a visitor who is a potential threat is good. Putting someone armed and trained in close proximity to that person is a good idea. Theologically, this is not a problem for us. We want to share the Gospel with all who will hear it, but we also have a duty under the Sixth Commandment to preserve the lives of our congregation. They are perfectly compatible.

    2) Shotguns are deadly. Even with a pistol grip.

    3) Drawing against the drop is always a dicey proposition. If faced with that problem, always try to move offline/toward cover while drawing.

    4) Body armor is your friend. I don't always wear mine during the worship service because it is hot and uncomfortable, but I am going to recommit myself to it. The first defender who went down would have been much more effective, all else being equal, if he had been wearing a Level IIIA vest.

    5) It's the Indian not the arrow. Jack Wilson made a shot that is impressive by any standard, and he did it with what I at least regard as a as a sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.

    6) There is no substitute for training. Mr. Wilson did not make a "lucky" shot. He had trained hard for a long time and fell to the level of his training. Like the SEAL poem goes: "One shot, one kill, no luck, all skill."

    7) Mindset rules the day. Mental preparedness is essential.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    1) not sure how hard to do, but comms would seem like a very helpful thing to allow members of the security team to identify a possible threat and make a plan. Do church security teams typically have this capability?

    2) Mr Wilson is to church security, and possibly more, what Sully is to aviation.
    Our security and medical first responders have radios/ear pieces too

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    I'm a big fan of Andrew Branca's 5-element approach. Broadly applicable to more tools and jurisdictions, and a much more complete picture of what an application of force should look like.
    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I am as well. His book "The Law of Self Defense" is a very useful reference which provides general as well as state specific info regarding the relevant laws.

    His blog is also useful.

    Other than his penchant for somewhat overselling his products and services, I find the information he provides to be very useful.
    I have the 2nd and 3rd edition of his book.

    For anyone interested, I would recommend the 3rd edition. Pretty much the same content as the 2nd, but easier to read as the state specific info is now in appendices as opposed to being interspersed between chapters.

    Here's a quick primer on the 5 Elements.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattF. View Post
    I am in charge of security for my church of about 200. This incident hit close to home, and I appreciate the analysis. Here are my takeaways so far:

    1) Identifying a visitor who is a potential threat is good. Putting someone armed and trained in close proximity to that person is a good idea. Theologically, this is not a problem for us. We want to share the Gospel with all who will hear it, but we also have a duty under the Sixth Commandment to preserve the lives of our congregation. They are perfectly compatible.

    2) Shotguns are deadly. Even with a pistol grip.

    3) Drawing against the drop is always a dicey proposition. If faced with that problem, always try to move offline/toward cover while drawing.

    4) Body armor is your friend. I don't always wear mine during the worship service because it is hot and uncomfortable, but I am going to recommit myself to it. The first defender who went down would have been much more effective, all else being equal, if he had been wearing a Level IIIA vest.

    5) It's the Indian not the arrow. Jack Wilson made a shot that is impressive by any standard, and he did it with what I at least regard as a as a sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.

    6) There is no substitute for training. Mr. Wilson did not make a "lucky" shot. He had trained hard for a long time and fell to the level of his training. Like the SEAL poem goes: "One shot, one kill, no luck, all skill."

    7) Mindset rules the day. Mental preparedness is essential.
    How much time do you have shooting double action only or DA/SA pistols? The length and weight of a DA trigger pool has no bearing on its usefulness in practical applications. There is nothing sub optimal about it.

    More relevant is knowing and being proficient as possible with your equipment. Kyle Defoor, A great proponent of the use of low power variable optics on carbines noted that many of his military and government client expressed frustration with the optics or gear they were required to use but that early in his own career much of today’s cool guys gear did not exist. In particular he had just been training a military unit that was issued and mandated to use the ACOG. He had advised the young soldiers that while in ACOG might not be his first choice, he could make them “pretty deadly quote with an ACOG.

  7. #147
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattF. View Post
    ... sub-optimal piece of equipment. The DA trigger on a P229 is neither short nor light.
    To reinforce what HCM said, my Sig M11-A1 (a railless P229) has an exceptionally smooth and perfectly light enough trigger with a stock hammer spring. It's literally the benchmark I'm trying to get my other DA/SA guns to meet.

    A very well respected member here whose contributions have been missed lately has said he's done his best shooting ever with a P228.

    Multiple members here have expressed that they are less likely to have fliers with a DA press than with an SA press. I've experienced the same.

    For someone who's trained with a classic Sig, the DA is no handicap.
    .
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    Not another dime.

  8. #148
    Leaving aside the tragedy of the two parishioners lost, the Texas incident provided “wins” for almost every group.

    Starting big picture with government, Texas politicians felt pretty smart for having passed legislation allowing an armed defense that clearly averted worse tragedy here. Trump likes it because it is consistent with his view on guns, and is supported by his base. Republicans like it because they believe guns are good. Democrats like it because they believe guns are bad. Even Joe Biden, not our brightest thinker, remembers how he was “for shotguns” before the Beretta 1301, and a dedicated sub forum here, made them cool again.

    Old shooters love it, because the good guy prevailed using a modified Weaver, showing how the Weaver is a “fighting stance,” and mind set trumps fancy shooting skills every time. They excuse Mr Wilson not having a proper caliber, .45, and a proper pistol, a 1911, but no doubt are setting up a Go Fund Me to solve the 1911 oversight.

    Red dot shooters like it, because they know the shoot was at the limit of iron sights, and if it was just three pews further, a red dot would have been necessary to save the day. Does get them thinking about the proper distance for a red dot zero, and BUIS, given the piss poor reliability of optics — it would really suck to draw your gun to save the day and have no dot. No doubt, the Modern Samurai will cover all this in an upcoming class.

    USPSA shooters love it, because even though the draw doesn’t matter much in USPSA, their skills shooting PCC and Open guns would have come in darn handy that day. Plus, that first shotgun blast was pretty close to the beep from a Pocket Pro II with a fresh battery. IDPA hasn’t been this excited since the Kenya intervention by an IDPA shooter there. The good guy, Mr Wilson, had a proper IDPA vest, and no doubt this scenario will be done as a stage at the next indoor IDPA Nationals. Even the hero had the right IDPA name — “Wilson.”

    Technical Timmies are in heaven. Poor guy got himself killed because he didn’t have even a dark pin draw. A turbo draw from the hero might have gotten the bad guy with no good guy fatalities. If only there was an appendix holster on the security team, a draw from sitting would be cake (of course no sitting reholstering unless SCD equipped). There are probably a half dozen drills of the week possible from this event.

    Ammo makers like it, because sales of .357 Sig will likely double, from the 2019 weekly average of 18 boxes of 20 cartridges, all the way to 36 boxes, at least for a few weeks. Sig USA is thrilled, because the last time anyone said anything positive about the P229 — well, it has been so long, not even Sig can remember. Also how nice for Sig to be in the news for their product dropping the bad guy instead of being dropped by the good guy, and then shooting the good guy.

    Gun forum owners love it, because it has spawned pages of new discussion, keeping things active until the Glock 44 starts shipping and we can discuss what sights regulate and what rimfire ammo has the fewest misfires.

    Evangelicals love it because it proves people still go to church, and church is important enough to shoot up. It probably helps male attendance, as guys that would go to the range on Sunday now kit up and head to church hoping to see the elephant. It also reinforces why the ladies need to look their best at church, since they can end up on national TV when least expected.

    Mexico loves it, because it shows crazy stuff happens places other than Mexico. Not even a suggestion a wall would have prevented this event. Muslims appear to have dodged a bullet with this event. Even the FBI looks like they didn’t miss preventing this — unlike that darn last Texas thing or two.

    So, as they say, success has many parents, and only failure is an orphan. I hope Mr Wilson drinks, because he won’t be buying a drink for the rest of his days on earth.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #149
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    I like it because by page 15 of the discussion thread we get the coolest posts.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  10. #150
    @GJM. Motherfucker, this is your best post on the p-f. With all this shit going around, this comic relief is the best NYE gift I could ask for.
    Last edited by YVK; 12-31-2019 at 10:12 PM.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

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