The MP5 and the FBI

[Bruce Cartwright]

Folks:

When I introduced myself to the Forum several months ago, one of our members, TGS, mentioned that I needed to do posts on cool revolvers and MP5s. I concentrated on the revolver angle, but realized I had neglected the MP5. So in order to appease the PF Gods, I submit the following. What follows is an article I wrote and posted to my website ("https://saconsco.com/").

When I attended the FBI Academy in 1997, we were schooled in 3 primary firearms: The Sig P228/P226; the Remington M870 shotgun and the Heckler and Koch MP5/10. I retired in 2017 and the MP5/10 has almost been completely phased out of service in favor of the M4 .223/5.56 carbine. This is a glorious obituary for the MP5/10.

The MP5/10 was a Bureau inspired version of the world famous MP5. Most MP 5s were chambered in 9X19mm. The MP5 pictured in this post was a 9mm version. Despite my best efforts, I don't think I ever got good photos of a 10mm version. The MP5/10 as the name implies was chambered for the 10mm handgun round. The 10mm was adopted by the Bureau as a result of the Miami Shooting that occurred in 1986. The Bureau wanted a handgun and carbine chambered for the same round. The handgun was the Smith and Wesson Model 1076. The Bureau fielded about 2,400 Model 1076s but the gun was eventually withdrawn from service for several reasons. The 10mm version of the MP5 remained and it flourished.



The MP5/10 was the “cool guy” gun in the Bureau for a couple of decades. It was favored by SWAT (”Special Weapons and Tactics”) teams and HRT (“Hostage Rescue Team”). As good as the 9mm version was/is, I submit that the 10mm version was better. First, ballistically it drove a 190 grain jacketed hollow point at approximately 1,100 to 1,200 feet per second. It was a hammer. More importantly, it was a controllable hammer. A 190 grain 40 caliber bullet moving at 1,100 to 1,200 fps solves most fights pretty decisively. If you are fighting in someone’s house, it didn’t get much better than the MP5/10. Good ergonomics (except for the short safety lever), excellent power, small size, adaptable to optics, German reliability and high round count all added up to a great combination.

There was a special quality about the MP5/10. It was so easy to shoot, that most agents liked to shoot it. I heard it said, that the MP5/10 made poor shooters look good, good shooters look great and great shooters look unbelievable. I tend to agree. Most brick agents (non-SWAT folks) loved the MP5/10. It was easy to shoot and gave them a decided advantage if they needed something more than their sidearm.

I got to run the MP5/10 in full auto quite a bit. For a gun that dispenses the power of the 10mm, it was/is a surprisingly controllable gun in full auto. In 2014 my issued M4 (223/5.56X45 carbine) needed to go back to Quantico for an overhaul. The loaner M4 in my office was already in use, so I drew an MP5/10. Yes, the optics were not quite as nice as my Aimpoint and the fore end light only dispensed 65 lumens of light and it wasn’t a true rifle caliber, but it was an MP5. Where I would probably need a long gun would be for room combat and in that venue the MP5/10 shines. That said, as soon as I could, I replaced that MP5/10 with my M4 (Mainly because I worked in a pretty rural area).

I miss the MP5/10. It was a superb weapon that has been eclipsed by weapons with greater capability. It is a very well-balanced platform that allowed those who carried it to competently carry out their missions and do so with a bit of elegance. Long live the MP5/10.

Update: I have had a chance to use a variety of pistol caliber carbines/submachineguns. Most get the job done to one degree or another. That said, I miss the MP5. Given the choice between an MP5 and most of the other options, I would prefer the MP5. I think it still has a place in domestic law enforcement, but I suspect that the MP5's ship has sailed so to speak. That said, for someone who operates in a permissive environment (i.e. can control the perimeter of a scene and thus the distances of anticipated engagements), the MP5 has much to offer. These guns are scary accurate in the hands of a trained operator. One of the unsung benefits off the MP5 is a much lower noise signature. I can tell you, having fired MP5s and various M4 carbines in enclosed structures, that the MP5 is much kinder to the shooter's ears (even with electronic ear protection). While I can list a variety of logical reasons for employing the MP5, I will admit that the Christmas season is not complete until I see Hans Gruber fall off the Nakatomi tower...

Bruce

[TCinVA]

Late last year I was able to take an MP5 with the collapsible stock and empty an entire magazine on full auto into a roughly fist-sized area on the steel target. It was sufficient to drive the target over backwards right as the magazine went dry.

Hard to get that kind of controllability out of most SMGs.

[DocGKR]

Love the MP5/10--definitely my favorite SMG!

[ccmdfd]

Very good read.

Thanks!

As a Med School graduation present, my VFD chief rented a MP5 and we spent an hour on the range with it. I was amazed how quickly we went through ammo.

[UNM1136]

In my academy class we spent a very generous amount of time with SWAT's MP5/10s. The funny thing was, due to internal pissing contests patrol got patrol rifles looong before SWAT did. And consistently scored higher on required monthly quals...


pat

[Lost River]

Great write-up as always Bruce!

That 190 grain load was pretty darn accurate.

[Inspector71]

My first introduction to the 9mm MP5 was at FI school, U.S. Customs, at Ft. Bennington, GA, in 1997. Customs philosophy was that all FI’s were trained to instruct in all weapons in the inventory, whether you actually carried that weapon or not. The MP5 was a breeze to shoot and reliable. Nice report, Bruce.

[blues]

My first introduction to the 9mm MP5 was at FI school, U.S. Customs, at Ft. Bennington, GA, in 1997. Customs philosophy was that all FI’s were trained to instruct in all weapons in the inventory, whether you actually carried that weapon or not. The MP5 was a breeze to shoot and reliable. Nice report, Bruce.

I was issued one with U.S. Customs during my time on SRT...late 80's, early to mid 90's.

[StraitR]

MP5 is legendary. Great write-up. Thanks for sharing.

[Lon]

Unfortunately I never had an opportunity to shoot the MP5/10. I did use the MP5 and the MP5/40. Loved the MP5, HATED the MP5/40. Back in ‘97 I got to help order and set up the equipment for a future SWAT Team for my (at the time) agency. The Sheriff spent a buttload of $$$$. MP5/40 w/ C-More, AR w/ACOG or C-More red dot, tricked out 870 and a SV 2011 for each SWAT guy. HNT got the 2011s, but not all the long guns, IIRC. I got to test fire, mount and rough zero all the C-Mores on the MP5/40s. They would not run for shit. I called HK and they were like “ya, we know about the problem but you suck and we hate you but we will send you a replacement part (locking piece) that should fix the problem”. They never could get them to run right. Kept them for 20 years though.

I tried to get them to switch to the MP5/10, but they didn’t want to get 2 types of pistol ammo.

I’ve often thought the 10mm would shine in an SMG and would have loved to give it a whirl. Thanks for sharing.