Mini rant on current events

[El Cid]

LL, I don't disagree with you, but I've also moved on from tilting at that particular windmill.

you can't force people to "get it". Few, if any, of us did right out of the gate. There are too many variables in terms of why people *really* get into this stuff vs. why they say or think they do. The guy that says he's looking for a "home defense" firearm is more often than not looking for a hobby, something to waste extra income on, and a social group to belong to. So railing on that guy to "go take a class!" (as I certainly used to do) is pointless.

What we can do is encourage them to get out and shoot, regardless of the venue, regardless of the application and (almost) regardless of with whom. it's the application of the trinket that changes hearts and minds. I know that, for myself, I got into IDPA because I was going through a breakup, which in turn led to training classes because I met people at IDPA that hosted same and because I realized how much I sucked only when measured against others, which in turn led to changing my perspective about firearms, their use, their application, etc.

of course, I've subsequently realized it's 99.9% horseshit and the remainder is horsepiss, so I may not be the best example...

Yea, I'll suggest a class or match to people who show interest, but I don't press it anymore either. How many times did we see a LEO come out to the monthly steel match thinking they were going to be top dawg because of their job? Only to have them not do well when introduced to the timer. They see some accountant, housewife, or engineer burn down the stage right after them, and then that LEO never returns to the match. If they aren't ready to take the next step in their training mentally, there's not much we can do for them.

[rob_s]

Not once did I mention nor imply "force." How do you not see the below as "encouragement?" I seriously ask as I believe we are having a communications failure somewhere.

I don't know about a failure, probably just a vastly different perspective.

I don't believe you can lead a horse to water OR make him drink, and I don't think it matters if he drops dead for failing to do so. But, I also don't think there's any real risk of him dropping dead whether he drinks or not, so it's all pretty immaterial.

I'm curious, why do you care what these people you're trying to include in "our culture" do?

[LittleLebowski]

I don't know about a failure, probably just a vastly different perspective.

I don't believe you can lead a horse to water OR make him drink, and I don't think it matters if he drops dead for failing to do so. But, I also don't think there's any real risk of him dropping dead whether he drinks or not, so it's all pretty immaterial.

I'm curious, why do you care what these people you're trying to include in "our culture" do?

Because I don't want whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term.

I wrote an off the cuff bit on how we should not become complacent in our training, seasoned it with reminders nigh pleas to urge others not to focus upon the material but rather training (and not just firearms training), and ended it with urging folks in whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term to take a newbie out shooting. Out of what I wrote, you said that I wanted to "force people to get it."

So yeah, we're having a failure to communicate and given your constant stream of negativity on anything and everything gun/training related, that's not going to change sans professional counseling and I don't mean that as an insult but I truly do think you have a psychological problem and fixation with the firearms community yet you seem not able to to stay away from it. You subtract more than you add here but we don't ban people based upon their tone nor content so long as they stay within the COC.

Anyway, respond with a negative rant, do what you like within the COC. I can't engage with you any more and I'm not the only one. Enjoy the community, stay within the rules. As a moderator, I can't put you on Ignore but I won't be reading your negative rants about the firearms community in literally every thread you participate in, to include posts on carpentry.

Folks, hit the Report Post button if he breaks the COC but otherwise don't expect me to read his negative, obsessive rants.

[David S.]

Just to clarify, do you mean they're doing the full pressout and THEN making the decision whether to get on the trigger or not, versus starting in some sort of ready position, making the decision and then moving the gun to center mass?

I can't speak for Mr. Haggard either, but I did attend Mr. Lindenman's training block.

As I recall, Low Ready may have been mentioned in passing but it was not part of the curriculum for this training block.

My guess is that Mr. Haggard witnessed a bunch of students neglecting the often added clause to Rule 3 (...and you've made the decision to fire) in a class called "Don't Shoot YET"

[11B10]

Because I don't want whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term.

I wrote an off the cuff bit on how we should not become complacent in our training, seasoned it with reminders nigh pleas to urge others not to focus upon the material but rather training (and not just firearms training), and ended it with urging folks in whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term to take a newbie out shooting. Out of what I wrote, you said that I wanted to "force people to get it."

So yeah, we're having a failure to communicate and given your constant stream of negativity on anything and everything gun/training related, that's not going to change sans professional counseling and I don't mean that as an insult but I truly do think you have a psychological problem and fixation with the firearms community yet you seem not able to to stay away from it. You subtract more than you add here but we don't ban people based upon their tone nor content so long as they stay within the COC.

Anyway, respond with a negative rant, do what you like within the COC. I can't engage with you any more and I'm not the only one. Enjoy the community, stay within the rules. As a moderator, I can't put you on Ignore but I won't be reading your negative rants about the firearms community in literally every thread you participate in, to include posts on carpentry.

Folks, hit the Report Post button if he breaks the COC but otherwise don't expect me to read his negative, obsessive rants.

^^^^^^ HEAR! HEAR!

[Cecil Burch]

I can't speak for Mr. Haggard either, but I did attend Mr. Lindenman's training block.

As I recall, Low Ready may have been mentioned in passing but it was not part of the curriculum for this training block.

My guess is that Mr. Haggard witnessed a bunch of students neglecting the often added clause to Rule 3 (...and you've made the decision to fire) in a class called "Don't Shoot YET"

I won't put words in Chuck's mouth, so I won't comment on what he said, but I do want to address something that stems from what some others have said in relation to this.

There is a bit of a contextual basis for the Larry's block that is being missed here. The title certainly was "Managing the Don't Shoot YET", but the block had nothing to do with getting a gun out and averting the muzzle until you needed to shoot because you didn't know if there was a specific or imminent threat. The context of the block was you already had a threat under your muzzle. Maybe he was someone who broke into your house, maybe he was someone who tried to mug you, but you got your gun out and on him, and AT THAT POINT, he was being compliant with your orders. PERIOD. You needed to keep the muzzle on him because he was a threat and could turn into an attack at any moment. The block (and actually Larry's entire day long full on module) is about dealing with that in the best manner possible, up to an including if he goes on the attack and you have to respond with the gun, or with blunt trauma, or H2H, or all three. As a matter of fact, there is a part that always comes up where people have a tendency to gesture with the gun, and Larry points out the inherent flaws in doing so because you NEED TO KEEP THE GUY COVERED WITH THE MUZZLE THE ENTIRE TIME.

There is going to be little worry about something like brandishing or aggravated assault, because the "bad guy" has already demonstrated that he is either a bad guy, or could be, or is in a situation that anyone could construe him to be a bad guy. Bringing in other aspects like this:

In most states it is illegal to present a weapon and threaten to kill or injure someone...which is exactly what pointing a gun at someone is.....but for some reason some people just can't grasp that. In TN self defense is an affirmative defense to Aggravated Assault ....but if you are not defending yourself...you are committing aggravated assault....you can't just point guns at people unless you can articulate why you were in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury or death at the time. A muzzle averted ready position needs to be in everyone's tool box

was outside the scope of this two hour block. The material presented was that you had someone you could legally shoot, but had a chance to resolve the situation without gunfire.

[Drang]

<LL Rant>

This is not needed at this time but as PF grows (it actually does steadily grow), we must always remind ourselves never to become complacent. It never hurts to explain why that SERPA is frowned upon or how much better off a new shooter is with a dryfire routine and a basic (actual shooting oriented) pistol class. It never hurts to remind basic to intermediate shooters that a Southnarc or Cecil Burch class will be more beneficial than nearly any firearms training when it comes to self defense and avoiding having to defend oneself. It never hurts to remind good shooters that you can still get a lot out of a decent basic-intermediate pistol class.

I bang my head against the wall a lot explaining to new gun owners that spending that AR15 or second handgun purchase money on a class is money better spent. From pistol shooting doth all shooting skills grow in my book. With the max point blank of the .223, it's not fucking hard to "hammer" with an AR. It's a lot harder to stay on target with a pistol from 3-25 yards but...it's more rewarding.
...
</LL Rant>

Hear, hear. Co-worker came to me to advise him on "What I should get next". Apparently he had received his tax refund and felt like spending it all. I told him to get a class. "I want to buy stuff!" and told me how much he had to send.
Okay, buy ammo and take two classes. "Hint: Just because you were an 11B10 doesn't mean you're an expert at anything."
So, then his peer arrives to work, and he turns to him for the same advise. "Buy ammo and take a class." I about fell out of my chair laughing.

I was saving this for Pfestivus, but I've been thinking we should start a "Talking Points" sub-forum, in which would be a list of bullet points to be used when trying to explain stuff to a friend or co-worker like "Why Serpas suck" or "Why Appendix IWB is OK", "Why you should seek more training".

[Chance]

It never hurts to explain why that SERPA is frowned upon or how much better off a new shooter is with a dryfire routine and a basic (actual shooting oriented) pistol class.

I was saving this for Pfestivus, but I've been thinking we should start a "Talking Points" sub-forum, in which would be a list of bullet points to be used when trying to explain stuff to a friend or co-worker like "Why Serpas suck" or "Why Appendix IWB is OK", "Why you should seek more training".

A Wiki would be useful. At the very least, a place to organize links to relevant threads. It can be challenging to find topics here, especially since conversations often wander.

ETA: For what it's worth, I understand Rob's points, and didn't read that as him being quarrelsome. In the absence of dissension, these are rallies, not discussions, and I learn a lot more from discussions.

[SLG]

ETA: For what it's worth, I understand Rob's points, and didn't read that as him being quarrelsome. In the absence of dissension, these are rallies, not discussions, and I learn a lot more from discussions.

I agree with your point about dissension, but there is useful, conversational dissension, and there is what Rob does, a lot of the time, which is "I actually know way more about this stuff than you guys do, and I'm on an enlightened plane compared to you, so you're just doing it wrong." Otherwise known as too cool for school. Which really cracks me up, so I don't bother railing against it, which I'm not doing now. Just pointing out what I see as the difference.

Of course, since my physiological needs are actually being met, I can afford the luxury of working to fulfill my other needs. Apparently the rest of you aren't meeting even the most basic needs yet, so you, know, get started. :-) I mean, I don't write for Operator magazine, but since I've actually done CQB against violent people, maybe they'll let me write for their JV magazine. Or something. :-)

[David S.]

Many of us have, in fact, heard and heeded the reasoned voice of folks like Todd Green, Craig Douglas, Chuck Haggard, Darryl Bolke and Wayne Dobbs (Dwayne, as my wife calls them ), and Tom Givens (and so many others) who continuously remind us to Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I'd still love to dive in to carbines, shoot house, and sniper (errr...long range precision rifle) training, but my 2016 is already full, thanks to Tactical Conference, Lone Star Medics and HiTS First Responder. If more money magically becomes available, then a bit of IDPA/USPSA (for fun) and BJJ.

OTOH, I understand that gamers gonna game and the entertrainment market is huge.