TX LEO shoots, kills woman while aiming for loose dog

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Originally Posted by TGS

it's all about the actions of the individual that are driving the situation, not what they're wearing.

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Right. In a Redman type suit you lose a lot of that feedback, masks make it difficult to hear, etc. Scenarios as a whole can be more ambiguous because role players aren't actors and you're often denied a lot of the clues of pre-attack indicators, etc. you'd have on the street. You end up filling in a lot of blanks with your preconceived notion of what the scenario is supposed to be. We've done scenarios with over a hundred role players, but that's 1 guy running around with a gun and a bunch of other people screaming, begging for help, etc. It's not really what I would consider shoot/no-shoot training. It's more of sifting through chaos to find the needle in the haystack.

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Originally Posted by TGS

not what they're wearing.

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You're telling me if you saw two people engaged in a shoot out, one was in a police uniform and one was shirtless and in baggy shorts, you'd not consider what the person was wearing as a relevant clue in your shoot/no-shoot decision? Of course what people are wearing can be relevant information in both scenarios and in the real world.

First, I feel for everyone involved in this. It is just a horrible tragedy. As to OC vs. handgun, I suddenly see the obvious-that if you shoot a dog running at you in a line from the owner, you have a hugely increased chance of bullets that miss or ricochet going into EXACTLY the worst place. I understand that in a shooting, people may or may not take back stop into account and I do not fault anyone for that. Maybe this point is something to mention very specifically in that "Canine Encounters" course we had to take, which is about an hour of information packed into a four hour class. Dogs getting aggressive and more ill-behaved at the direction of their meaner, ill-behaved owners and the public's lack of support for shooting dogs that may actually need to be shot have combined to make things harder than they need to be.

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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

Right. In a Redman type suit you lose a lot of that feedback, masks make it difficult to hear, etc. Scenarios as a whole can be more ambiguous because role players aren't actors and you're often denied a lot of the clues of pre-attack indicators, etc. you'd have on the street. You end up filling in a lot of blanks with your preconceived notion of what the scenario is supposed to be. We've done scenarios with over a hundred role players, but that's 1 guy running around with a gun and a bunch of other people screaming, begging for help, etc. It's not really what I would consider shoot/no-shoot training. It's more of sifting through chaos to find the needle in the haystack.



You're telling me if you saw two people engaged in a shoot out, one was in a police uniform and one was shirtless and in baggy shorts, you'd not consider what the person was wearing as a relevant clue in your shoot/no-shoot decision? Of course what people are wearing can be relevant information in both scenarios and in the real world.

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Ah, I see what you're saying.

Our background actors aren't wearing red man suits, so that's probably the difference.

Of course, that means our FoF evolutions aren't 100% FoF, they're limited to UTMs and going hands on isn't allowed.....which on its own is another downfall for another discussion.

The evolutions in which we go hands on (wearing red man suits) don't utilize UTMs, they're either blanks, red guns or intermediate force.

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Originally Posted by TGS

Ah, I see what you're saying.

Our background actors aren't wearing red man suits, so that's probably the difference.

Of course, that means our FoF evolutions aren't 100% FoF, they're limited to UTMs and going hands on isn't allowed.....which on its own is another downfall for another discussion.

The evolutions in which we go hands on (wearing red man suits) don't utilize UTMs, they're either blanks, red guns or intermediate force.

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That’s the beauty of FIST suits and similar. You can do true integrated scenarios.

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Originally Posted by HCM

That’s the beauty of FIST suits and similar. You can do true integrated scenarios.

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Sure. One of the limitations is also the training venue. Our tac mazes are concrete floored warehouses, not the padded rooms like at Glynco.

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Originally Posted by TGS

Sure. One of the limitations is also the training venue. Our tac mazes are concrete floored warehouses, not the padded rooms like at Glynco.

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Mats don’t have to be built in. We have an abandoned county building we use for training including SIMS. The walls are not padded but we bring in mats, lay them down, then beach then at take them with us. It would only be easier in a facility of your own.

We so integrated hands on stuff 3/4 quarters - summer is too hot to leave people in the suits and our training venues don’t have AC but where there is a will and imagination there is a way.

Work around s are a thing. The main County LE Range we use wont let us bring sacrificial cars on the range. So we made a wood frame for cracked / blew windshields, put it in a table with a folding chair. You can do a lot more than you think.

We are pretty lucky in regards to facilities. We have a big 50y line course range, two 25y tac bays, an old construction office type trailer, a 100y rifle range, and a small wooded area.

We've also been allowed access to schools, hospitals, a defunct mall, and warehouses for occasional use.

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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

We are pretty lucky in regards to facilities. We have a big 50y line course range, two 25y tac bays, an old construction office type trailer, a 100y rifle range, and a small wooded area.

We've also been allowed access to schools, hospitals, a defunct mall, and warehouses for occasional use.

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We had similar venues in South FL. We'd use beachfront motels, office buildings, concrete factory, aircraft and ocean going vessels and a variety of locales up to and including mangrove swamps for various training...both day and night.

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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

OC doesn’t work. =/= spray works well.

If a human were charging me and I believed the intent was to cause my bodily harm, I would not rely on OC to stop the assault. OC is a tool for non-compliance, not for being attacked. OC is neither fast enough to take effect or reliable enough for me to risk injury by deploying it in place of tools that I know work faster and more reliably. So, you are correct. I would contend that it does not "work well", although it does sometimes work, regardless of if the assailant is human or animal.

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So... is OC a compliance or control tool?

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Originally Posted by Clark Jackson

So... is OC a compliance or control tool?

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It's two mints in one.

(You probably gotta be pretty old to get that one.)