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More reloading info when the correct 38-40 bullets, with crimping groove, get here from Acme Bullets. Will try to slug the barrel.
The Colt chamber shoulder is way forward of what Starline considers the shoulder.
Gringop
Some old Photos.
Victor and his wife Ellen, in front of their house, that I I live in today. A peaceful man, with a Colt pistol, for when it was needed. If only I can live up to his example.
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A young Gringop. To sleep, perchance to Dream...
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38-40 reloading update.
I loaded up 3 Trail Boss loads, low, medium and the max from Hogdons website . The max is none too MAX at 800 fps and 9,900 PSI.
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38-40
Starting loads Max Loads
Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
Hodgdon Universal .401" 1.600" 6.9 813 8,200 PSI 7.5 955 11,900 PSI
Hodgdon HP-38 .401" 1.600" 5.8 747 9,400 PSI 6.8 934 13,500 PSI
Hodgdon Trail Boss .401" 1.600" 4.5 694 7,300 PSI 5.5 800 9,900 PSI
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Here is what I got on the chrono,
load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 4.5gr Trail Boss 585 609 563 46 16
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.0gr Trail Boss 624 646 600 46 11
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.5gr Trail Boss 670 685 654 31 11
Note that none of these loads obdurated on the neck or the shoulder. They all bled some gas back behind the shoulder but none all the way to the base. Probably because the shoulder had to be blown forward to conform to the Colt chamber. These were all new Starline brass with the shoulder set as per factory specs and my Lee dies.
I will try some more Trail Boss at 5.5gr with the shoulder set correctly for these chambers but I don't hold out much hope for Trail Boss being worth a crap in this gun. It's great for Trapdoor level 45-70 loads that you can shoot all day but too wimpy for this 38-40.
I'll try some Universal and HP-38 with correctly formed shoulders next time.
Pic of the shoulder difference with the Colt chamber on the left and factory on the right.
Attachment 30386
These are the bullets I'm using. ACME 180gr .401 diameter, with crimping groove.
Attachment 30387
Here is the pistol, SN shows it's from 1914.
Attachment 30388
Even after I cleaned the heck out of it, there is a good bit leading at the muzzle and the forcing cone. I used a Lewis Lead Remover and some Chore Boy wrapped around an old brush but I don't want to risk doing any damage to the bore just to try to get it pristine.
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A picture of the bore. I slugged it with one of these bullets. The lands are .396 and the grooves have to be more than .401, they did not mark the bullet.
Attachment 30391
Here are the targets at 7 yds. I only had 10 rounds of the 5.5 loaded up so it's just 2 sets of 5 shots vs 15 rounds with the other 2. All 3 of these loads shoot 3-3.5 inches low at 7 yds, they were all so slow that I don't have much faith that I will find a faster HP-38 or a Universal load that will bring the POI up to POA.
Gringop
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Where were you holding the sights? That would be about an inch low to me for a 6 oclock hold on the paper target, but not too bad overall.
It looks like pitting more than leading, but there may be leading. It still will likely shoot fairly well, the rifling is strong enough.
You may (or not) get better accuracy and less leading with either/both a slightly fatter bullet and a better lube. The commercial lubes seem to be more for clean handling then best lubricating properties.
Sounds like you are on the track of loads your gun will like. Keep us posted on how its going as you learn more.
Edit: you may be able to bump up a bullet to slug the bore with bu taking one of the ones you have, setting it on a solid surface like the anvil flat of your vise, and hitting it flat on the nose with a hammer. t doesnt have to be shooting perfect, just fat enough to get a true groove diameter reading of the barrel size.
Another week, another reloading for 38-40 update.
I adjusted the sizing die upward to size the brass closer to this Colt's long chambers. Unfortunately, this results in the neck not being sized down correctly. The bullets don't drop through into the brass but the only thing really holding them is the roll crimp. If I seat them to the correct depth for the crimp groove in the bullet, they are really loose. I seated them a little long so the crimp is on the the lead just behind the crimping groove.
On the 40 rounds fired today, I only saw one round that looked like the bullet jumped forward about a 1/32". All 40 rounds obdurated on the shoulder with just a little carbon on the neck. I may try to size a little more to see if it will size the neck down.
I tried the low and medium published loads for Hodgdon Universal and HP-38, of which I have a crapload laying around. HP-38 showed the best SD but Universal gave a tighter group and some what less unburned powder in the cases.
load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 6.9 Universal 660 728 628 100 33
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 7.3 Universal 693 760 652 108 32
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 5.7 HP-38 638 676 601 75 23
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 6.3 HP-38 669 695 648 47 14
This is Universal from 4 cases poured out after firing.
Attachment 30628
This is HP-38 from 4 cases.
Attachment 30629
I will try both powders at closer to the Max load to see if I can get a cleaner burn. and still have good groupings.
The medium load of 7.3 gr Universal gave the best 10 shot group so far from this gun. All the shots in this thread are from a rest (my hands on my shooting bag) with the sights on the X. The old Colt trigger is nowhere near match quality but I'm happy with this best group. At least it shows the improvement when the brass actually obdureates and is not getting blown forward 3/16".
Gringop
PS, None of the chambers were sticky at all today. Some shells dropped right out by gravity but none required anything more than a push with the ejector. My guess is that the prior issues were a result of carbon blowby and case shoulders being blown forward on top of the carbon.
Attachment 30630Attachment 30631
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Which is why we see a lot of SAAs with the front sight filed down to correct. I doubt you will want to do that, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by gringop
I have similar experience with inadequate resizing in .44-40.
I bought the titanium nitride coated sizing die from CH. Easy as a carbide die on a straight case. But it does not bring the neck down tight enough. The last I loaded with it, I used the Lee COLLET Factory Crimp die which put a hard stab crimp on the case mouth and kept everything together. Better to clean the brass better and use the steel die to get adequate bullet pull.
I recommend you contact the die maker and try to get them to exchange your sizing die for one that will give a good grip on the bullet. Good bullet pull should improve the powder burnup.
Ch/4D will make a custom die set based on dimensions of fired cases sent them. You can call or email them and very likely be called back by the owner. Thin case necks make the round difficult to reload. Sometimes the front of case will distort. Making seating and crimping a separate operation will help here. Also trimming cases to the same length is a good idea.
http://ch4d.com
I did.
They told me my brass needed to be annealed.
Another 38-40 update and probably my last with this pistol.
I loaded up 30 rounds using the max load for Universal, 7.5gr and ran them through the chrono.
load avg high low extreme spread S D
180gr lead ACME bullet WLP 7.5gr Universal 748 762 699 63 19
I'm glad the we finally broke 700 FPS with this gun, but I had 5 rounds out of the 30 that have some primer leakage so I will back down to 7.3 gr for the future loads. I don't see this as gas bypassing around the edge of the primer but as actual cracks in the primers themselves. They are Win Large Pistol primers.
Attachment 30765
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I'm happy with the groups I'm getting, I added a dot of red paint on the sight about 3/32 from the top and it is now hitting to POI at 7 yards when I shoot using the red in the real notch.
Attachment 30768
Here are 2 5shot groups at 7yds. The only other thing that I might do is add a reduced power Wolff mainspring. Not sure if it's worth it.
Attachment 30769
Gringop
And, of course, I left some info out,
Re. the loose neck, I am now just crimping the heck out of the brass into the crimping groove on the bullet. It's not locking the bullet in rock solid, I can spin the bullet in the brass, but there is no bullet jumping forward under recoil.
Tonight, I tried to set this cartridge up on my Dillon 550 but the Lee seating/crimping die will not screw down far enough to give a good crimp before bottoming out on the Dillon shell plate. There were also issues with getting the the 40 cal powder funnel to work with the non-fully resized cartridge necks, I would have had to throw powder charges manually anyway.
Short of grinding the seating/crimping die shorter, for me, this cartridge can only be reloaded on my Pacific (not quite yet Hornady) single stage "C" press.
Interesting old Pacific/Hornady info
url]https://www.hornady.com/corporate/company-history/[/url]
I'm looking for any info re. a vendor called www.wholesalehunter.com. I see that they have various Uberti/Cimarron rifles and pistols in 38-40.
Has anyone bought from them? They advertise their new stock on gunbroker as well as their own website and I have read some complaints about them selling guns that have already been ordered and paid for to other buyers because the original buyer's ffl did not respond quickly enough.
Just looking for any info from people that purchased firearms from them
Gringop