TX LEO shoots, kills woman while aiming for loose dog

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Originally Posted by Clark Jackson

From reading through this thread, I find it curious that OC type sprays have such a divided set of opinions on efficacy (for animals and people,) yet are generally regarded as very useful for bears.

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Bear spray actually has a much LOWER concentration of OC than products designed to be used on humans. Maybe bears are just sissies. :p

Bears kill roughly 1-3 people a year in North America each year. Are most bear attacks "attacks" or posturing and attempts to drive us from their territory? Go take a quick gander at the bear spray studies. Note the success rates. Note the relatively small instances of use on charging bears vs posturing/curious bears. I think you'll see some correlation. You could, perhaps, draw some parallels to how dedicated your human/canine attacker are and note that humans and the animals we socialize are not equivalent to wild animals in many regards. Why do we euthanize bears that get too accustomed to human contact?

I'm certainly no bear expert, but it seems like perhaps they are not a good analog for this conversation.

Since you brought it up posturing, that's what most dogs are doing as well.

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Originally Posted by fwrun

Since you brought it up posturing, that's what most dogs are doing as well.

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Yup. So are most people. I can deal with the vast majority of posturing behavior from both without OC, although they are certainly the ones OC is most likely to work on. I've dealt with that sort of "aggression" just fine with body language, voiced commands, and the occasional hot dog. I've also been bitten and by dogs that absolutely weren't posturing. Dogs that weren't dissuaded by body language tricks, voiced commands, or physical violence short of lethal force. I'm now, I think, pretty good at sorting out who's who but the lessons weren't free.

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Originally Posted by fwrun

Right? Good enough for an animal that can actually kill you with ease, but inappropriate for a charging beagle. A lot of dogs freak out at even the pshhhh sound of the can.

After viewing the BWC, I stand by my assertion.

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Not sure if it's good enough for a bear or not.

I just find it curious that it's marketed for and generally accepted (or so it seems) as a solution to bears.

There are even those who make the argument that citizens do not need firearms in National Parks because they are less effective against bears than "bear spray." I disagree with the "less effective" argument, but it does seem to be a pretty popular position.

in contrast, something with higher OC concentration (as correctly noted by @BehindBlueI's) like OC Spray marketed for use against people and/or dogs has a fairly well documented failure rate against both dogs and people.

*The OC Spray/foam/mist failure rate isn't huge, but it isn't negligible either.

I have to remark that many OC (and Taser) failures occur because of poor deployment. Both weapons work best when used proactively, preferably, but not necessarily, against a stationary threat. If you try pepper spraying or Tasering (or shooting) a threat actively attacking you, there is a much greater chance of missing.

This is not to say that the Taser or OC is ineffective, but timing is everything.

This is the classic bear spray study, BTW. https://bearwise.org/wp-content/uplo...t-al.-2010.pdf

I'm more interesting in studies with reasonable sample sizes and peer review than one offs. If you did it that way, you should carry a fire truck, hoses and ladders - if you recall the guy with a samurai sword that withstood bean bag hits and pepper spray. He was taken down with a fire truck, hoses and pinning with a ladder.

Back to firearms... I hate second guessing something like this. There hasn't been an emphasis on "be sure of your target and what's beyond it". No one seems to be training on changing your angle/position anymore. I have seen this with active shooter training, no mention of changing angles. If you're at the doorway doing limited penetration chances are the victims will be bunched up in a corner directly behind the suspect. You may have to enter and change the angle before taking the shot. Paul Howe is a big advocate of this and brings it up.

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Originally Posted by Sammy1

Back to firearms... I hate second guessing something like this. There hasn't been an emphasis on "be sure of your target and what's beyond it". No one seems to be training on changing your angle/position anymore. I have seen this with active shooter training, no mention of changing angles. If you're at the doorway doing limited penetration chances are the victims will be bunched up in a corner directly behind the suspect. You may have to enter and change the angle before taking the shot. Paul Howe is a big advocate of this and brings it up.

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Not really a LEO but I agree. When I watch some of the videos posted here and elsewhere, I often wonder if the Officers were aware of what was around or behind the threat...since I can't see exactly what they see I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

That said, how can this even be effectively trained into a person who carries a firearm?

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Originally Posted by Redhat

Not really a LEO but I agree. When I watch some of the videos posted here and elsewhere, I often wonder if the Officers were aware of what was around or behind the threat...since I can't see exactly what they see I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

That said, how can this even be effectively trained into a person who carries a firearm?

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You can pretty easily train it with 3D targets live fire and with sims and role players. The issues are will we train it enough to be effective and stick under stress ?

SIMS are time consuming due to safety protocols and gearing up/down. Live fire requires a range with a 180 degree berm.