Chuck Taylor's American Small Arms Academy Urban and Home Defense Handgun Course

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Originally Posted by vcdgrips

"Hackathorn would perhaps be the best example of an old school guy that evolved and stayed modern and relevant."


...his [Tom] exceptional grounding in the Modern Technique and his own development of firearm based martial arts as time, equipment and technique continues to evolve and change for the better."


I would go as far as to say the Tom is THE Professor at the University of Modern Pistolcraft because of his dedication to BOTH the dissemination of knowledge and the creation of knowledge as it pertains to the uniquely American martial art of modern pistolcraft.

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Point taken. I'm certainly no historian of pistol training and certainly didn't mean that Hackathorn is the only one of the 'old guard' that has evolved.

Something that has long impressed me about Tom Givens is his use of hit factor scoring, that rewards speed and accuracy.

I have seen too many scoring systems that effectively penalize speed, even though common sense tells us that speed is very important in competition or self defense.

I've never taken a class from Tom Givens, but I've read many of his writings and his is another opinion I value.

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Originally Posted by Larry Sellers

@BigD that's exactly what is still taught here in a regional ASAA group.

My "punchout" technique, as in draw the gun out to the target was shunned several times with the statement "don't come see me if you ever shoot someone". They're adamant on drawing to a low ready, then up to the target.

The rock back is still taught and AIWB carry may as well be a infringement on their civil rights.

I've met some great folks in their classes/clinics, however the whistle and stopwatch thing doesn't do it for me coupled with the "story time" that eats away at every evolution caused me to cease giving them my $$


Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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I’ve got an ASSA certificate from those guys. I thought it was worth doing for the sake of doing it, ran a 1911, and didn’t offer or invite “C Stories”. I found it to be a technically interesting course. They’re not up to speed when presenting the speed rock though, or not having any shooting from retention positions.

But has Hackathorn really adapted? Full disclosure- I’ve never met him or trained with him. But... several good friends who I’ve known for years, have trained and competed with, are switched-on shooters, and some of them have lots of real world experience in both the military (one is Army SF) and in LE... they took a class with Hackathorn. They all felt it was a waste of time and money.

He would tell the class, “this is the Bill Drill.” He would demo it, then have them each shoot it once. Then the El Pres, etc. They didn’t get to do more than one run at any of the drills. It was as if he was showing them something new and one commented he must not know about YouTube since everything he “taught” is available there and from lots of other people and places. He also spent a good amount of time bad mouthing some of the newer crop of trainers - at least one of whom we had all trained with and had impressed us with his abilities as an instructor. There was no attempt to diagnose the shooter’s or help them improve. This was around 2013 or so.

He may be a super nice guy. But I remember thinking I was glad I had a conflict that kept me from going to the class with my friends. I hesitated posting this only because I don’t want to be “warned.” ;)

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Originally Posted by El Cid

But has Hackathorn really adapted? Full disclosure- I’ve never met him or trained with him. But... several good friends who I’ve known for years, have trained and competed with, are switched-on shooters, and some of them have lots of real world experience in both the military (one is Army SF) and in LE... they took a class with Hackathorn. They all felt it was a waste of time and money.

He would tell the class, “this is the Bill Drill.” He would demo it, then have them each shoot it once. Then the El Pres, etc. They didn’t get to do more than one run at any of the drills. It was as if he was showing them something new and one commented he must not know about YouTube since everything he “taught” is available there and from lots of other people and places. He also spent a good amount of time bad mouthing some of the newer crop of trainers - at least one of whom we had all trained with and had impressed us with his abilities as an instructor. There was no attempt to diagnose the shooter’s or help them improve. This was around 2013 or so.

He may be a super nice guy. But I remember thinking I was glad I had a conflict that kept me from going to the class with my friends. I hesitated posting this only because I don’t want to be “warned.” ;)

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I trained with Ken in 2016. He has evolved in that he started with Cooper and has moved past the 1911/Weaver/45 ACP trinity. That’s a bigger transition than it seems, and one that Mr. Taylor seems to have made only in part.

Most trainers have a proprietary method/marketing trick that they position as progress. It helps them stand out in a crowd, but it usually brings excess complexity into the mix. Ken’s approach is simplicity: get hits, keep the gun running, and learn how to improve. This dovetails with what Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara teach: there are no advanced skills, only the basics executed properly under conditions of increasing difficulty. Given that Ken helped develop the shooting program for their old unit and given the success that those folks have had with it, I’d say that’s evolution even if it doesn’t leap out at you.

As for the specific class that I took, Ken focused on the basics and increased the difficulty as we went. We shot a series of drills normally, then on the move, then in low light, then moving in low light. I have a fair amount of experience doing stuff like that from the military, but it was all with long guns, so it was a perfect expression of his approach with the handgun. Also, although the class was overbooked, he still spent plenty of time on diagnostics for those in need.

There were a few sea stories, but they helped break up the day. I also got a lot out of his comments on the background of each drill, and his comments on the use of video, data, and statistics to study gunfighting. They all reinforced the need to get hits and keep the gun running. Others may have had a different experience.


Okie John

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Originally Posted by okie john

I trained with Ken in 2016. He has evolved in that he started with Cooper and has moved past the 1911/Weaver/45 ACP trinity. That’s a bigger transition than it seems, and one that Mr. Taylor seems to have made only in part.

Most trainers have a proprietary method/marketing trick that they position as progress. It helps them stand out in a crowd, but it usually brings excess complexity into the mix. Ken’s approach is simplicity: get hits, keep the gun running, and learn how to improve. This dovetails with what Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara teach: there are no advanced skills, only the basics executed properly under conditions of increasing difficulty. Given that Ken helped develop the shooting program for their old unit and given the success that those folks have had with it, I’d say that’s evolution even if it doesn’t leap out at you.

As for the specific class that I took, Ken focused on the basics and increased the difficulty as we went. We shot a series of drills normally, then on the move, then in low light, then moving in low light. I have a fair amount of experience doing stuff like that from the military, but it was all with long guns, so it was a perfect expression of his approach with the handgun. Also, although the class was overbooked, he still spent plenty of time on diagnostics for those in need.

There were a few sea stories, but they helped break up the day. I also got a lot out of his comments on the background of each drill, and his comments on the use of video, data, and statistics to study gunfighting. They all reinforced the need to get hits and keep the gun running. Others may have had a different experience.


Okie John

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Well stated Okie J as I also trained w/ Ken in 2016, twice actually w/ very sim. experiences in both, not to mention my first class w/ Ken in late 2008-09.

That said if he returns in 2019 to Bill Wilson's ranch 2 hours north of me, I could easily see myself going back to catch him there as Bill's facility is WELL done & Ken is down to only 3-4 classes a year now.

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Originally Posted by okie john

I trained with Ken in 2016. He has evolved in that he started with Cooper and has moved past the 1911/Weaver/45 ACP trinity. That’s a bigger transition than it seems, and one that Mr. Taylor seems to have made only in part.

Most trainers have a proprietary method/marketing trick that they position as progress. It helps them stand out in a crowd, but it usually brings excess complexity into the mix. Ken’s approach is simplicity: get hits, keep the gun running, and learn how to improve. This dovetails with what Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara teach: there are no advanced skills, only the basics executed properly under conditions of increasing difficulty. Given that Ken helped develop the shooting program for their old unit and given the success that those folks have had with it, I’d say that’s evolution even if it doesn’t leap out at you.

As for the specific class that I took, Ken focused on the basics and increased the difficulty as we went. We shot a series of drills normally, then on the move, then in low light, then moving in low light. I have a fair amount of experience doing stuff like that from the military, but it was all with long guns, so it was a perfect expression of his approach with the handgun. Also, although the class was overbooked, he still spent plenty of time on diagnostics for those in need.

There were a few sea stories, but they helped break up the day. I also got a lot out of his comments on the background of each drill, and his comments on the use of video, data, and statistics to study gunfighting. They all reinforced the need to get hits and keep the gun running. Others may have had a different experience.


Okie John

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Good to know. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by okie john

This dovetails with what Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara teach: there are no advanced skills, only the basics executed properly under conditions of increasing difficulty. Given that Ken helped develop the shooting program for their old unit and given the success that those folks have had with it, I’d say that’s evolution even if it doesn’t leap out at you.

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Not to derail the thread but this has always confused me. I have often heard internet people talk about Hackathorn having instructed or help develop Deltas shooting package. I’m certain I have heard Vickers say it. But I have heard first hand from two separate retired Delta guys that the story and claims are greatly exaggerated if not borderline bogus. They both claimed that his only connection to that organization was Vickers who brought him in for a “class”. The instrumental people they name are the Leathams, Voights and Coolies. They say that those guys made the organization the shooters they are.

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Originally Posted by El Cid

But has Hackathorn really adapted? Full disclosure- I’ve never met him or trained with him. But... several good friends who I’ve known for years, have trained and competed with, are switched-on shooters, and some of them have lots of real world experience in both the military (one is Army SF) and in LE... they took a class with Hackathorn. They all felt it was a waste of time and money.

He would tell the class, “this is the Bill Drill.” He would demo it, then have them each shoot it once. Then the El Pres, etc. They didn’t get to do more than one run at any of the drills. It was as if he was showing them something new and one commented he must not know about YouTube since everything he “taught” is available there and from lots of other people and places. He also spent a good amount of time bad mouthing some of the newer crop of trainers - at least one of whom we had all trained with and had impressed us with his abilities as an instructor. There was no attempt to diagnose the shooter’s or help them improve. This was around 2013 or so.

He may be a super nice guy. But I remember thinking I was glad I had a conflict that kept me from going to the class with my friends. I hesitated posting this only because I don’t want to be “warned.” ;)

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Well, since everyone is being all nice....

Ken Hackathorn has a cameo in Sicario. Did you have a cameo in Sicario ? Hmmm ? :-)

Seriously, there is always something to be said for original sources.

Sumdood running what is now a common benchmark drill you can see on YouTube vs one of the guys who helped make it a common bench mark. I’d be curious how they settled on the design of the drill, round counts, partimes etc. what gave them they idea in the first place ?