Bullets forward vs. bullets out mag pouches?

I'm a year into USPSA shooting production. Purchased a DAA belt and racer pouches last year for Christmas. Have been running bullets forward. I follow Ben Stoeger and his books for dry and live fire. He's a bullets out guy and I have seen a lot of guys going to this at local matches.

Here is the question for you who have switched or given it a good effort and gone back. Is there enough objective benefit to change, or is six of one a half dozen of the other and it's all about the practice, etc.?

I did turn my pouches last night and spent about 45 minutes doing reloads. It seems that it could be better, especially out of the middle pouches, but it will take some getting used to. Does it really matter if the first pouch grab is the same as that's the one you will use in classifer stages and will be on the move most other times? If I was 10 years in and very proficient with bullets forward I doubt I would change, but I'm still new in the game and willing in the case that it's truly the better way.

Thanks in advance.
BTW, if anybody knows if Stoeger has addressed this in a Practical Pistol Show episode please let me know which one.

Doesn't much matter. There are guys shredding both ways. I run bullets forward and have tried bullets out but it wasn't instantly better.

If it does have some inherent benefit, you have to put in the reps to reap it, so I just put in the same reps on my standard rig.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I think the real benefit is being able to put more mags in a tighter space, which matters to production shooters due to their behind the hip requirements.

I played around with the Safariland duty pouches that are bullets out and didn’t really care for them. Seemed harder to get a good grip on the mag since they were so close together.

I use bullets out. The first time I dryfired with them as fast as I could I alternated between the fastest reloads I've ever had and throwing a mag across the room. That made me feel like it would be faster if I could get it down. As Lon mentioned more mags in a tighter space is helpful, I don't need to reach around to the middle of my back for mag #5.

You need to have single mag holders so you can spread them out, not the multiple mag pouches.

Another rarely used benefit is the ability to grab a mag that is farther back, on say an unloaded start with a few steps before the first target. Then I still have my closer mags for faster reloads when needed during the stage. It also keeps you from having to pass your thumb between your body and the mag if you are packing a spare tire.

I don't think it's a necessary change, or hands down better, it's something you should probably experiment with though. Keep in mind the first time you try it how many reps you have into the old way vs the new way, and the timer is your friend. If you can run the same time bullets out, it might be worth switching because you should be able to get faster with practice.

For USPSA Production, I use Ghost pouches, bullets forward. I've been running bullets forward forever, so it would take a lot for me to change. But, I have worked hard on my reloads and that's probably my best skill (e.g. 4 Aces in 2.09s), so I think I can comment objectively. I actually find bullets forward more ergonomic--especially for surrender starts--and that's a big deal on classifiers. I also like bullets forward much better for pouches 2-5. As my hand moves backward from an empty pouch 1, it naturally finds the next full pouch.

As Lon and bofe954 said, you can pack more pouches in using bullets out. With my 32" waist, that would be an advantage. I can't get more than 5 pouches comfortably using bullets forward, and #5 is at 6:00 on my belt.

Running some pouches forward and some out? I suppose you could try that, but it doesn't seem ideal to me.

Whatever you choose, you need a blazing fast reload from pouch 1. Your other pouches just need to work for reliable reloads while moving.

I used both for extensive periods of time (years), I find no difference between the two.

I realize your question is only in regards to comp shooting but just something to consider is if you would conceal carry the same way? To me, bullets out prints more and I would want to remain consistent in both how I would get my mags when both conceal carrying or at a comp event

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhillySoldier

I realize your question is only in regards to comp shooting but just something to consider is if you would conceal carry the same way? To me, bullets out prints more and I would want to remain consistent in both how I would get my mags when both conceal carrying or at a comp event

---

I doesn't matter... Just practice both... Really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PhillySoldier

I realize your question is only in regards to comp shooting but just something to consider is if you would conceal carry the same way? To me, bullets out prints more and I would want to remain consistent in both how I would get my mags when both conceal carrying or at a comp event

---

Ive had no issue switching between the two. Neither with comp gear to carry gear or using two different rigs at a Saturday Sunday match.

So I shoot with bullets out ghost pouches, like them a lot and on a real good day I can get a reload around .98 or so. Problem is in dryfire when pushing fast, I smash the hell out of my fingers on the side of the pouch to try to get those times. Really hate practicing reloads because of it.

I switched to them because loading from pouch 2+ with bullets forward I constantly ran my pointer finger into the pouch in front and got a much less consistent grip on the mags.

Anyone else experience this? Not sure if it’s a technique issue or I should try some other types of pouch to see if it helps.

So I have a couple of hours of dry fire in. I find I'm getting a consistent deep grab with good index with bullets out where I would often grab shallow with bullets forward. It does seem that the mag is rotated ever so slightly in my palm from what I'm used to as I'm finding that even with a good deep grab the mag is not cleanly hitting the mag well. Did some Burketts and I could see it. Likely just needs reps.

The back pouch has taken some getting used to. Angled it to the front a bit which helped. I must be torquing it as I've popped the tension leaf spring out a few times. (Double Alpha Racer pouches).

The plan is to dry fire the rest of the week then shoot on the weekend and see what the timer says. My best load on 4 aces last week was 1.30 which I know is too slow. In truth my impression is that from pouch No. 1 it's probably a wash. It does feel that I can get a much better grab on No's 2 and 3 as my hand doesn't catch on the forward mags. We'll see...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clusterfrack

For USPSA Production, I use Ghost pouches, bullets forward. I've been running bullets forward forever, so it would take a lot for me to change. But, I have worked hard on my reloads and that's probably my best skill (e.g. 4 Aces in 2.09s), so I think I can comment objectively. I actually find bullets forward more ergonomic--especially for surrender starts--and that's a big deal on classifiers. I also like bullets forward much better for pouches 2-5. As my hand moves backward from an empty pouch 1, it naturally finds the next full pouch.

As Lon and bofe954 said, you can pack more pouches in using bullets out. With my 32" waist, that would be an advantage. I can't get more than 5 pouches comfortably using bullets forward, and #5 is at 6:00 on my belt.

Running some pouches forward and some out? I suppose you could try that, but it doesn't seem ideal to me.

Whatever you choose, you need a blazing fast reload from pouch 1. Your other pouches just need to work for reliable reloads while moving.

---

Thanks CF, that makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm restarting back in USPSA shortly; just local matches here in Clearwater at Wyoming Antelope Club. I've migrated from a VP9 to a Glock 19, so I took the opportunity to get new Ghost pouches and was wondering about mounting them forward or out.

I decided to mount them bullets forward, for the above info, as well as existing reps with bullets forward with the BT dual mag pouches I previously used.

I would love someone to make a pouch that holds the bullets 30-45 degrees out instead of 90 degrees out.

Bullets forward in Ghost pouches for me. I only carry 4 spares on my belt so I just need to get creative if there's a silly high round count stage.

Makes no difference I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

I would love someone to make a pouch that holds the bullets 30-45 degrees out instead of 90 degrees out.

---

I bought Guga Ribas pouches just for that reason. Dunno if they got to 45 degrees but I did set them at a forward angle.
Unfortunately, pouches themselves sucked and the execution was much worse than the idea behind it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YVK

I bought Guga Ribas pouches just for that reason. Dunno if they got to 45 degrees but I did set them at a forward angle.
Unfortunately, pouches themselves sucked and the execution was much worse than the idea behind it.

---

I’ve thought about trying the aluminum DAA pouches for the same reason. I currently use the plastic DAA and like them a lot more than the ghost pouches I used to use, but I wish I could angle them away slightly without going full 90 degrees.

I swapped to bullets out a while back. It took me a while to adjust. Ghost mags - back plates don’t let you put the mags any closer together, but there is more space between the pouches. I angle the 1st 3 forward, then 2 vertical, and a 6th is bullets forward. I usually use that one for my starting magazine.

Extra mags are handy if you have to clear a malfunction and drop an extra mag, or accidentally pull out 2 mags instead of one, or for a long course loaded with steel, or whatever.

If I were serious about Single Stack I'd probably consider bullets out...but mostly because getting six mags on a size 30 waist is frustrating

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I used bullets forward my whole life until this USPSA season when I switched to bullets out (Ghost 360). By the 2nd/3rd dry fire session I was already faster and more repeatable from bullets out orientation.

It's empirically faster if you sit down and think about the mechanics and wrist rotation required by each.

I have kinda a stupid question, so bear with me.

I am setting up my new P belt (a CR Speed) with Ghost pouches and a D/OH Holster. The belt (hopefully) arrives today.

On the pouches, I see a lot of the High Speed Low Drag guys severely angle the pouches on the belt. Mostly forward.

I’m moving up from a pair of dual BT pouches that are straight up and down.

It may not make much difference now since I suck, but are there are any guidelines on Pouch angle when setting up a new belt?

Or is it a case of trying various angles until you find whatever works for you?

Or does it not really matter?

Here is an example of how what you feel may not be real.

After dry fire sessions during the week I had decided to go back to bullets forward as that's what felt comfortable. Figured I'd go ahead and do a little live fire on the weekend to confirm, but was already planning to move it all back to BF Saturday night and shoot again on Sunday.

Saturday's focus was marksmanship not gun handling, but I did a few "4 aces" at the end of the session to compare to last weekend. My best reloads out of 12 runs the week before with BF were a 1.30 and a 1.31. Those were the only ones in the 1.30's with the mean and average of 12 runs in the 1.40's. I ran it 5 times with bullets out and got (not in order) two 1.20's, a 1.27, a 1.42 bobble, and an abortion....

So despite what I felt the timer says that after only 3 practice sessions I am faster BO. As a PT I very much get how it's a more efficient move. Objectively I must be honest with myself and say that BO works. It certainly doesn't feel natural as yet, but I'm going to stay with it tracking times and see what happens.

As far as cant. I have the first 2 slightly canted back, the 3rd straight, and the 4th a bit forward. I for sure need to try different stuff in regard to this. I noticed that Stoeger's 5th is looks BF in at least one video. This might be something I try with my 4th as that grab definitely feels odd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins

I have kinda a stupid question, so bear with me.

I am setting up my new P belt (a CR Speed) with Ghost pouches and a D/OH Holster. The belt (hopefully) arrives today.

On the pouches, I see a lot of the High Speed Low Drag guys severely angle the pouches on the belt. Mostly forward.

I’m moving up from a pair of dual BT pouches that are straight up and down.

It may not make much difference now since I suck, but are there are any guidelines on Pouch angle when setting up a new belt?

Or is it a case of trying various angles until you find whatever works for you?

Or does it not really matter?

---

No restrictions on cant, as long as the carrier doesn't extend past the hip bone.

Most production shooters angle the first two pouches with the top (base pads) angled back and the bottom (feed lips) angled forward...

I only do 4 pouches, and use a clip-able ReadyTac pouch is good as a 5th pouch when i need it. (I also use it for IDPA)

Canting the pouches helps the wrist fall at at more natural angle - flexing the wrist to grab a pouch in front of the hip bone is slow...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

I’ve thought about trying the aluminum DAA pouches for the same reason. I currently use the plastic DAA and like them a lot more than the ghost pouches I used to use, but I wish I could angle them away slightly without going full 90 degrees.

---

I HĀT those pouches!

They just feel... Wrong.

I use bullets out when I shoot production (more mags in less area) but when I shoot Carry Optics
I can get through most stages just using one or 2 23 round mags so my CO belt is bullets forward
I do find the Bullets out a little quicker to grab but ....really the difference is negligible (to me anyway)
I'm not that fast with either LOL!

I started with bullet nose forward, but switched to bullet nose out just to try it. I liked it enough to keep it that way, but honestly, I don’t think it matters.

Mag Ride height matters more IMO, and I recently stuffed my mag pouches to give me more exposed mags without negatively affecting retention. I really like that change and it gives me a faster, more consistent index on the mag as it comes out of the pouch.

I wonder how much of the “bullets out moar better” thing is just that people tend to practice more after a change?

I’ve changed guns several times over the years and generally found a quick improvement in scores but then an eventual settling back to where i was. I’ve since attributed that to the ramp up in practice time with new hotness causing my performance to improve and my eventual boredom and reverting to old practice routine to be the cause of the back-slide.

IVe gone to these now

https://www.facebook.com/Snapmag-1363393857101512/

And while I appreciate that they look like a gimmick they actually work bloody well. They're getting very popular here. With 15 round Production and Production Optics one very rarely reloads more than twice in a stage and this makes both of those from the same spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rob_s

I wonder how much of the “bullets out moar better” thing is just that people tend to practice more after a change?

I’ve changed guns several times over the years and generally found a quick improvement in scores but then an eventual settling back to where i was. I’ve since attributed that to the ramp up in practice time with new hotness causing my performance to improve and my eventual boredom and reverting to old practice routine to be the cause of the back-slide.

---

After the first one I think they're legitimately easier to get a consistent grip on. Just not worth me retraining and changing the belt around because lazy and because CCW.

Of course you may be right as well, change is fun and fuels a desire to train.

For me, the performance difference in position between BO and trad, is not enough to outweigh commonality with my EDC mag position. What is important to me, is that the mag pouches are cut down enough to give me a good grip on the magazine. For that, I really like Blade-Tech competition mag pouches.

Attachment 28877

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GJM

For me, the performance difference in position between BO and trad, is not enough to outweigh commonality with my EDC mag position. What is important to me, is that the mag pouches are cut down enough to give me a good grip on the magazine. For that, I really like Blade-Tech competition mag pouches.

Attachment 28877

---

What holster is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Up1911Fan

What holster is that?

---

Looks Bladetech.

Last week I broke 2 sec for a live standing reload out of pouch #5 for the first time. Not a mind boggling achievement but a pretty big deal for this B class shooter. I don't care bullets in or out from the first or second pouch but once I go way around the back, bullets out is a no contest for me.

I understand that the above was written in a language foreign to CO, Limited or IPSC shooters.

Saw that this old thread popped up again. I started it, so figured I'd give an update. I've stayed bullets out for the most part. I did go back to bullets forward for a month or so in the late spring, but realized that I really do like BO better and it is faster.

One thing I did have to do was modify the pouches a bit. With the BO position I would often put pressure against the tension plate/spring and drag it out of the pouch with the mag. This didn't happen with BF, but did with BO and was a pain leaving the plate and spring on the ground somewhere in the middle of a field course stage. I solved the issue by drilling a small hole at the bottom of the plate and looping a very thin zip tie through it and around the pouch mount. This and a bit of Armor All on the plate to reduce friction did the trick. (I mainly mention this as I heard a guy write in with the same issue on one of the Triangle Tactical Podcasts)

I am going to get a 5th pouch soon as I was recently at a match were I though I might need it. The re-loads worked out okay, but it made me decide that I was going to get one. I'm thinking that from that far back No. 5 will be BF.