HELP - Little frustrated with my group shooting with my Glock. Any advice?

I lost track after the first 2 targets as to what gun produced which result but a couple things. 1- The HK was shooting high and the Glock was shooting low. Me, I'd adjust sights to fix that, on both guns. I don't care if someone else can shoot my gun perfectly. If I can't hit where I want I adjust the sights. If, after time passes I see my groups moving, I adjust the sights again. This is why we have interchangeable sights. I am not going to d--k around w/ one gun that always shoots low or high or whatever while my others are fine. I am not going to force myself to use some different technique to shoot one gun differently than the others. 2- The Glock has a very different grip angle than your other guns so it may be that angle simply does not work for you. A totally different gun but my experience may apply. Been shooting Beretta 92s for about 20 yrs. 3 yrs ago I bought an M9A3. By removing material from the lower rear grip surface Beretta straightens out the rear of the grip so it's like a 1911. First range trip I immediately noticed I was shooting 2 inches low at 30 ft compared to my usual Beretta. I shot about 4 mags through it and installed the supplied conversion grip which fills in the missing material. Instantly POI = POA. I am not a Glock fan so I may be a little biased but I agree 100% w/ Alpha Sierra- You've spent a lot of time trying to make your Glocks work and they won't. We shoot because we enjoy it. Why go through life frustrated when you can shoot other guns that you pick up and easily get the results you want? Reading between the lines, you like the CZ and the HK. You pick one of them up, it feels good, you shoot it, it shoots good, and you smile at the results. DUMP the Glocks. Yeah you will lose some money, but I bet 6 months from now, you look back and find this was the best decision you ever made.

There's so much online bullshit Glock mythology that some people feel there's something wrong if they don't like them and/or can't shoot them well.

It's a good thing to get over that sort of thinking.

If group shooting at 25 yards was the main way we evaluate pistols, Glock wouldn’t have sold 10 million of them, or whatever their number is to date. The Glock is one of the more difficult pistols to shoot 25 yards groups with.

Is the OP trying to compete at bullseye or USPSA?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GJM

The Glock is one of the more difficult pistols to shoot 25 yards groups with.

---

In your experience and opinion, is it a mechanical issue or is it the nature of the trigger and grip or a little of both?

For me, what I am really concerned with, when group shooting, is the confirmation that there is not a mechanical issue at hand. Once I have eliminated mechanical concerns from the equation, I will focus on other things. But there is nothing quite as frustrating as trying to chase performance when you really aren't sure if it's you or the gun.

If I am chasing an accuracy problem it turns out the gun won't group for shit, 50% of the time working to improve mechanical accuracy yields a substantial (100% or more usually) gain. If group sizes are 5", you swap in a Bar-Sto barrel and groups shrink to 2.5" with no other changes, you solved 25-yard group size shooting issues, and gained 100% in terms of group size as your performance metric.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RevolverRob

When diagnosing group size issues, I want to eliminate variables, before I do anything else. The biggest variable in freestyle group shooting is the shooter.

---

Definitely agree!!

Quote:

---

So let's mitigate that by shooting the gun rested off the bench. Have you done this? Do it side-by-side with a gun you also shoot well (e.g., the HK). Preferably, you can use the same caliber and same ammunition between both guns to control for that variable. But if not, let's isolate the shooter as part of the equation first.

---

Using a Caldwell Matrix rest, it is between 2" and 3".

Quote:

---

My opinion (which is worth what you're paying for it here), is that you likely have a combination of the wrong ammo choice and mediocre Glock barrel accuracy. I've never seen a 9mm Glock factory barrel prior to the Gen 5s produce <2" groups without the perfect ammo. The occasional gun will do it, but most of them are 3" guns at best. If after some ammo tuning you still can't get better than 3-4" groups off the bench, I'd swap the stock barrel. Jarvis or Bar-Sto would be my choice. I'd bet that will clear up grouping issues almost instantly.

---

I have a new Gen 5 that I got recently. Yet have to fire it - I have already added to my menu for my next range session to try it out at 25-yards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by okie john

For details on how to shoot a Glock for pure accuracy, see post 37 here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....evisited/page4

---

Thank you! I still have to digest it fully, but your points do make sense.

I have already noted a few items, mostly from the Range Technique, in my range session menu.

That being said, I have a few factory FMJ in 124 and 147 lying around. I will be trying it with my match G34 (Gen 3) and my new G34 (Gen 5).

For the sights, I am zeroed at 1-inch high at 20-yards (Dawson Precision recommends that sights be measured against 20-yards). This allows me a "combat hold" (just point the dot) in matches 15-yards and in... Albeit, the ratio between the width of my front sight post to the rear sight notch is about 105/135. It's quite wide, right? In action pistol matches, it provides good speed, but a little challenging when I am going for group shooting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GJM

If group shooting at 25 yards was the main way we evaluate pistols, Glock wouldn’t have sold 10 million of them, or whatever their number is to date. The Glock is one of the more difficult pistols to shoot 25 yards groups with.

Is the OP trying to compete at bullseye or USPSA?

---

I am a USPSA shooter.

That said, be it clear - I am not looking for the perfectly accurate Glock (at the least, am not going into bullseye shooting). I just want to improve my group shooting that I can carry over to action shooting. I have read/heard that it is a good thing to consider/include in practice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RevolverRob

If I am chasing an accuracy problem it turns out the gun won't group for shit, 50% of the time working to improve mechanical accuracy yields a substantial (100% or more usually) gain. If group sizes are 5", you swap in a Bar-Sto barrel and groups shrink to 2.5" with no other changes, you solved 25-yard group size shooting issues, and gained 100% in terms of group size as your performance metric.

---

As mentioned, shooting it from a simple rest yields 3" max groups. On a good day with a crappy FMJ 115GR ammo - I can probably do 3-inches. If I am allowed to take out one flier from one of my groups yesterday - I think it would have been 3-inches. Would this be a consistent/standard group size for an intermediate shooter?

Oh, yes, I have already placed an order for the B8 targets. Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CraigS

you like the CZ and the HK. You pick one of them up, it feels good, you shoot it, it shoots good, and you smile at the results. DUMP the Glocks. Yeah you will lose some money, but I bet 6 months from now, you look back and find this was the best decision you ever made.

---

Hahaha!!!

In all seriousness, there is a grain of truth to what you have just said - I think I remember mentioning in some other forum that if I weren't in Kaliforniastan, or didn't have the "Safe Handgun Roster" I most probably would HAVE NOT BEEN a Glock shooter... :D


_

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodralig

I am a USPSA shooter.

I just want to improve my group shooting that I can carry over to action shooting. I have read/heard that it is a good thing to consider/include in practice

---

I sure would be curious to know which Grand Master is such a strong advocate of group shooting as a path to success.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rodralig

As mentioned, shooting it from a simple rest yields 3" max groups. On a good day with a crappy FMJ 115GR ammo - I can probably do 3-inches. If I am allowed to take out one flier from one of my groups yesterday - I think it would have been 3-inches. Would this be a consistent/standard group size for an intermediate shooter?

---

I would view that as a more than acceptable standard for an intermediate shooter, who is shooting a defensive gun and not a Bullseye pistol. A 3" group would be more than adequate to score 90+ shooting 10-rounds at a B8. In fact, the black (9 and 10-rings) on a B8 are 5.5" in diameter.

In my, very limited, opinion, being able to reliably place 10-rounds into the black on a B8 at 25y is a good accuracy standard for just about all kinds of defensive shooting. Ideally, you can do that as quickly as you can reacquire the sights. The reason I use this as my accuracy standard is because that's about the actual size of the human heart and roughly the size of the area we want to hit in the eyebox as well (which is a little shorter, a 3x5" card does about right for eyebox). In a defensive scenario, I want to be confident that I can place my rounds into areas that size (or smaller).

I wouldn't worry too much about group shooting beyond establishing some kind of personal standard, for defensive guns (unless you just happen to like shooting groups). I use the 10-rounds into a B8, that gives a maximum score of 100 points. My cutoffs for a carried handgun or one that is used defensively - 95+ @ 5 yards, 90+ @ 15 yards, 85+ @ 25 yards - if I can't get those scores shooting as rapidly as I can reacquire the front sight the gun doesn't get carried. Because it means either I'm not good enough or the gun isn't good enough, either way, I don't accept anything less than those.

But that's just a basic accuracy standard. Beyond that it is time to break out the timer and focus on the other things.

You may find that by choosing a score to hit on the B8 makes you more confident and your group sizes shrink anyways. Instead of focusing on the size of the group, you're focusing on establishing an accuracy standard. The amount of coffee you drink before a range session can affect your group size. Fouling in the barrel, the wind, the damn ambient humidity can all play a role in group size. Instead of saying, "I want a 2" group at 25-yards." Just say, "I want to score 90+ shooting 10-rounds at a B8." Then you won't care as much about how you get that score, as long as you can get it on demand.

What sights are installed on your G34's?

I've found that the longer sight radius doesn't save you from the horrible stock Glock sights. If you haven't tried a set of Ameriglos or Trijicons, you should.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra

I sure would be curious to know which Grand Master is such a strong advocate of group shooting as a path to success.

---

Seriously?

The A zone is 6" wide and 11" tall. Groups that are 4 to 4.5" tall by about the same width at 25 yards are perfectly fine.

Your time would be better spent reducing your splits while maintaing your current accuracy at 25 yards (or even accepting a C or two in a 10 shot string) rather than trying to shrink group size while shooting slowly.

In fact, dump the bullseye targets and stick to USPSA classic targets which have a more challenging A zone.