https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MRDigL6CQs
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I saw that video at some earlier juncture. While they make great points about police needing more in-service training, I’m not sure that I agree with their ultimate stance.
The other concern that raises in my mind is that if I used a choke to sleep someone who is unarmed in a self defense situation, I could be charged with using lethal force.
Yes, the best option is to never get taken down, or to seize the initiative and do the takedown. Though some takedowns (suplex, harai goshi, blast double) would, using this logic, rise to the level of lethal force.
All due respect to the Gracies, it isn't lethal force. It's just not that simple.
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Tangential, but on another forum, in a galaxy far far away, I got taken to task by a retired doc, more or less: “I’ve been in medicine my entire life, and I’ve never heard of “TCCC”, you are not making any sense throwing made up acronyms around.”Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
The point being, someone can be both a distinguished expert in their field, and out of their lane at the same time with just the slightest shift in context. And I guess that’s all I’ll say, lest I venture ever further out of my own lane, and let others more qualified argue points dating back to at least 1882.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45dotACP
I think that is way overblown. It is the H2H equivalent of "if you change anything on your gun, they will charge you with being a gun nut". Just as that is easily beaten in court, so is using a choke. And you will have an easier time tin court because you did not kill him, so you are already ahead of the curve. There is so much documentation of verifiable sources to refute anything like this to a judge or jury.
Would it be better to not get charged? Sure, but that may happen even if you do everything correct. Nothing is going to ensure that you walk away with backslaps from the cops.
Ryan Hall was involved in an altercation. He used BJJ and didn’t hurt the guy..
I saw the Ryan Hall vid. He definitely had the calmness and composure needed to show just how effective BJJ is for controlling a resisting opponent.
I guess I just wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of an over zealous prosecutor screaming that not even police officers are allowed to use chokeholds, so using one in self defense is excessive and dangerous. Especially given all the trouble I went to to learn BJJ and take advantage of the most effective way to beat someone much larger and stronger than me.
I suspect you're right though Cecil. It's probably more of a theoretical Boogeyman than reality.
Either way, I'll still be trying to figure out this BJJ thing.
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@45, I get your concern. But the good part of BJJ, is the experience you build up tapping and getting tapped out. I’ve choked people out. It’s weird but you feel their body go limp. You know to back off. Experience and your professor or coach are watching.
So I think you will act with restraint. Your partners will give feedback. Meatheads don’t last long in BJJ
I think that here in lies the problem with law enforcement. The amount of academy training that is dedicated to H2H and marksmanship... is limited. Especially considering that we are well into a generation or so of folks who have NEVER had to handle themselves in a physical confrontation, much less a potentially lethal one. How many officers have the time, $$ and dedication to train in firearms, H2H and others topics on their dime? Probably very few (those are already training and most likely aren't the type of deuche like the MN guy). That means that very few will get that experience of dealing with being choked out, choking someone out under controlled circumstances. Their first run at it will be while they are crapping their pants involved with their first real fight for their life. That is a situation where that whole knowing enough to be dangerous comes into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankinCA
I'm not suggesting that choke holds or any other technique should be banned or taught. I'm far from an expert in the area of H2H or law enforcement, so that decision should be left to the experts in those fields and not the political experts either. If we chose to teach someone a set of skills and label them a professional, we should teach those skills to mastery, not just minimal understanding. IMO we have a LOT of things in society that are at a minimal understanding level vs true mastery.
Hi all, i'm new to the forum. I'm a BJJ & MMA practitioner as well as and LEO/DT-Instructor. I like what the Gracie's say but think of the Vascular restraint as a "rainy day" option. I have a Combatives/ Control Tactics page I set up for other LEO's instructor's in my agency. see attach for my full point of view...Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerrero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GadmjODjm8w
my channel if your interested...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9R...kVSkHbRM2qgF9g
thanks all & stay safe.
@runcible, your thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkiconcepts
I agree with the video. I have to ditto what @FrankinCA said. The safety seen in BJJ is the participants are trained and there is usually somebody close by watching.
Welcome to the forum. Anyone who likes the Wire and Bosch is probably going to fit right in!Quote:
Originally Posted by hapkiconcepts
(I checked out several of your vids; cool channel.)
Played Judo as a kid and I believe I lost my first bout by tapping out of a choke hold. Probably won a few by getting the other guy to tap out of a choke. Choke holds are common, actually easier than the more esoteric techniques. Thousands of choke holds every day in dojos all over the USA. Another thing denied to LEO's, one less thing to try before going to the pistol. Sort of hard to tap out of a gunshot wound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DueSpada
I think it's important to note a few things when applying this analogy. Those thousands of choke holds applied in dojos all over the USA are being done in a controlled environment with a supervising instructor who is trained to notice the symptoms of someone no longer conscious in that chokehold and is ready to intervene at a moments' notice when someone has lost consciousness.
I've seen at least a dozen instances over a decade in BJJ classrooms at multiple locations in multiple states in the US where an instructor has rushed over to tell a white or blue belt that their training partner has lost consciousness and they need to let go "RIGHT NOW!" I've heard lectures given to those students and had instructors vent to me behind the scenes with comments like "Geez, how long do you think they out for and still getting choked before I noticed?" (class of 20-50 students on the mat). Heard white and blue belts being asked by instructors "didn't you notice they were out?" with students embarrassed to admit they were so focused on keeping the choke tight they had no idea their opponent had lost consciousness. Had there been no supervision or instruction, I have no idea how long those holds would have continued on the unconscious opponent.
Not to mention, the tapping out situation to end the hold is not generally an allowable street or police scenario.
Keep in mind the average BJJ blue belt has been training for 1-5 years (almost no one at a reputable BJJ school gets a blue belt in under a year. Many, including myself took two years to get a blue belt and then spend 3 additional years at that rank) while spending 3-10 hours per week training BJJ. And this failure to release the hold on an unconscious training partner still occurs dozens (at least) of times across the US every year in those same dojos Fortunately, in those cases, there is a supervising instructor or ref to provide a failsafe. Most police officers have not had 200-1000 hours of supervised instruction in applying chokeholds nor could we reasonably expect them all to add that amount of training to all of their other aspects of job related training, IMO.
I say the above as a former competitive brown belt with a decade of hard training in the sport of BJJ. I have been choked unconscious a few times over those years and similarly rendered others unconscious numerous times. Although plenty of people notice when someone has lost consciousness, plenty of others fall into tunnel vision and auditory exclusion and do not.
Food for thought: PF's very own @Chuck Haggard talked on a recent episode of the Civilian Carry Radio podcast (Episode 147) about a Kansas police agency local to him and their stats on putting on LVNR. I'll let him speak for himself if he so chooses, but what I remember hearing is that 85% of the time that officers locked in the holds and were ready to put someone to sleep, they did not actually have to take it to that point. Put in that compromising position and starting to feel the pressure, suspects became compliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
The same could be said for upwards of 85% of that same class of white and blue belts. The problem is that the even at a 99% rate the math works out to dozens unconscious people being choked after already losing consciousness. As to not having to put people to sleep and gaining compliance before a loss of consciousness, even on the mat where everyone should know to tap I have rolled with numerous new or visiting spazzes that rather than tap decided to slam me, scratch me, bite, me or crotch grab rather than tap. Probably equally frequent to all of those are the people that are too proud to tap and go unconscious (most often the "I'm gunna be a UFC champion type). And that is only with their pride at stake. Plenty of people just freak out when they start to go out and "think they are going to die" (on the BJJ mat). Pretty much any blue belt has seen examples of everything I have mentioned above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Sauce
The point is not the vast quantity of time something works, it's if the failure rate and consequences of those failures are acceptable, IMO. What is the acceptable rate of malfunction occurrence per thousand rounds in your gun for instance? 85% ? And out of a thousand malfunctions, what is the most likely consequence to that malfunction? Would you say that if 85% of the time an officer pulled his pistol he did not have to pull the trigger an appropriate reason to downgrade the potential lethality of the service weapon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
To zoom out on this idea even further, what’s a better outcome? A serious failure, say,1 percent of the time (to pick a number out of the air), or not having the tool at all and moving to 50 percent shootings instead? Setting aside the afore mentioned Chuck Haggard’s observation of one dept using LVNR a quarter of a million times with no deaths, injuries, or payouts, even a nominal failure rate of 1 percent beats the alternative of having to move to deadly force on a sizeable chunk of the remaining 99 percent, barring the option. Perfect being the enemy of the good and all that.
Interesting point you raise and I can see it appropriately punching some holes in my general argument. First I have to say that I'm a huge proponent of the tools offered by BJJ. But I do think the Gracie's make a point with where the tool is classed on the spectrum as used with the expertise of the group as a whole.
The problem I see in the portion of the debate I'm trying to avoid with respect to law enforcement use is that it seems that more subject matter experts consider it dangerous when applied by people without many hundreds of hours of training. And then a lot of white and blue belts thinking it's all fine. Typically, on the mat, that break is very telling.
I'd be very curious to see a poll that lined up the opinions on the choke danger cross referenced against those that do not train BJJ, white, blue, purple belts, etc..., those who have taught on the mat.
The problem is, as I understand, the lack of alternatives. I'm not saying cops with minimal BJJ experience couldn't make a mistake and injure a suspect. If you forbid this sort of restraint, and it's a pretty effective way of making an arrest and getting someone into cuffs, what's the alternative? If it goes to strikes, it's more dangerous for both parties involved. I suspect we'll be seeing that a lot in places around the country that make blood chokes against policy for police to apply--suspects badly beaten via strikes before an arrest is finally made.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
I'm an older, non-practicing Blue Belt, and I don't have any answers.
I've tapped and been tapped with choke holds. My instructor tells a story about a student of his in a real altercation who let his opponent up in after he tapped, and who then stabbed him; if it's real and he taps, then he's still functioning.
I've also rolled with a guy who thinks it's unmanly to tap; have to be really careful with that idiot, and I hope he gets over his hangups before he gets hurt.
But as to not having other tools, I'm not sure that's true. I don't know if South Korean police have handcuffs or not, but I see plenty of pics of them using a wrist lock come-along, oppo's forearm tucked neatly under their armpit. Kimuras are pretty effective at immobilizing. Handcuffs are even better and I don't think you need a choke hold when oppo has his hand cuffed behind him; if you're afraid he'll run, then zip tie his ankles.
As I said, I'm older, grey-haired, and overweight, and am unlikely to be provoked. If I do have to use these holds, it's unlikely to be a Kimura or a wrist lock or an arm bar; how would I let him go and get clear if I have no backup? Cops have backup.
I'd rather get choked than tased or beaten by a nightstick.
But I'd also rather not get yanked to the ground by my neck by someone who half remembers their academy training. I did a deep dive on strangle induced strokes and hyoid damage, and they seem to almost always involve way more pulling and crushing to the neck than a properly done and controlled rnc. Lot of incidents during police *training* compared to BJJ gyms in general.
This policy is overkill, though.
Care to share the study you're referencing? Sounds worthy of a read.Quote:
Originally Posted by ford.304
I would too, provided that it was by someone who knows when to let go. I might take my chances with the taser and nightstick if the alternative is a guy that holds that RNC for five minutes after I stop moving.Quote:
Originally Posted by ford.304
I'll share the few sources I found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Sauce
The tl;dr is that there are no good studies on prevalence in the sport, and strokes from vascular dissection occurs in all kinds of sports. I even found case studies when it occurred from golf...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678212/
Goes over the mechanism and causes of stroke from carotid dissection, and how it can relate to BJJ techniques.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comment...jj_scientific/
Links to several other papers discussing prevalence in other sports.
https://medium.com/@bizjitsu/my-stro...y-ff01f4924d68
Is a blog where is collecting anecdotal stories of strokes from choking. At least in my eyes, a commonality in many of these is the *roughness* of the choke that caused the dissection. Chokes applied with muscle, not control.
https://www.familyjusticecenter.org/...ion-to-stroke/
The presentation linked here is also an interesting starting off point from the "other side." This "Dr. Smock" seems to be the go-to expert for anyone wanting to ban choke holds. I'm not incredibly impressed by his "research" but it contains several more links to specific incidents where officers stroked after their infrequent grappling training.
The NCBI article indicates that poor health is a significant risk factor. To me, reading between the lines and taking my personal knowledge of "white belts" and secondhand knowledge of "cops," it seems likely that many of the events described by Dr. Smock were at least related to a couple somewhat out of shape novice practitioners going a little too rough on each other.
Additionally, in talking to my instructor and reading comments on r/bjj, it seems that most practitioners with many years of experience know *someone* who had a strangulation-induced stroke. That said, that's a ton of people doing BJJ and getting choked daily, so it's not that high of a base rate.
I came to the general conclusion for my training that it is something to keep in the back of your mind if you are debating muscling your way out of a rough choke, but not a primary concern. However, it does seem as though it would present an increased risk when applied to a general population of potentially overweight and out-of-shape suspects being controlled by minimally trained and hyped-up officers.
In any case, any training on it *needs* to include an emphasis on immediate release once the suspect is out and under control, and policy should be against it if you haven't been trained. Putting it in the same category as shooting someone is nuts, though.
The stat for LVNR in KCMO is that 85% of the suspects it's used on are at level 1 or 2, and are NOT rendered unconcious.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
I hear a LOT of "yeah, buts!" from people who have theory that has already been disproved by facts over the past few decades.
Your post is yet another case of this.
I'm confused by your response to my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard
1) We are using the 85% statistic in the same manner. From my reading perspective this is quite clear in my post. But it is always possible that I am not seeing from the outside reader's perspective. In my post I am making a point to address the "other 15% of the time" with regards to how just incomplete an 85% rate is when dealing with technique that can and has resulted in deaths.
2) This is NOT a case of "yeah but". This is a "Ive been there, seen that, am speaking from extensive personal experience, and am consistent with dozens of subject matter experts, including the two in the video that is the subject of this thread." I'm not sure how you discard my post as a simple "yeah but."
3) In an effort to better understand where you are coming from in the context of this thread regarding the Gracie's discussing chokeholds I ventured over to the page linked to your signature. Admittedly, I didn't take an extensive tour of the site but I couldn't find anything detailing your BJJ experience or training there? Are you a BJJ blackbelt? If not, how long have you been training in grappling, and what credentials do you have in BJJ, nogi, 10th Planet, Catch Wrestling, Sambo, or equivalent?
^Mainly asking the above because I can't think of any of the high level grapplers I know discounting a post like mine as "disproven theory". Unfortunately, the initial video of the thread by the Gracie' is in response to dozens of chokehold deaths over those past decades you reference. Those are the "facts" that are driving the basis of the discussion with regards to the Gracies putting out a video on the subject. If their "theory" was disproven by facts there wouldn't be the deaths over those decades to point to.
Now, I should note, I have not ventured into whether these chokeholds should be "allowed" or not. I have addressed the level of training required to avoid errors occurring when putting the choke into use. I have noted that in my thousands of hours of training in chokeholds I have firsthand witnessed people failing to realize their training partner was unconscious numerous times. Those are the "real world facts" I am basing my post on. And I should note that I seem to be consistent with the true subject matter experts on the matter of chokeholds.
Is there a profession more experienced in chokes than BJJ? A police agency that allows chokes for less than deadly force has how many thousand less chokes per year than a BJJ school per year? How many hundreds of hours less training? A law enforcement agency may have 4-8 hours per year of defensive tactic training which is about 1-2 weeks of training for a new BJJ student. My agency does 1 hour per month of DT's and 1 hour a month of firearms training-for a total of 24 hours combined defensive tactics/firearms. The state requires a minimum of 8. Other states and locations vary but I'm interested in locations and agencies that support chokes for less than deadly force what their experience knowledge is compared to the Gracie's in the video and what they would say in response.
As someone with easily over 10,000 hours on a grappling mat, I agree with their stance.
BJJ can be leveraged in a way to completely control and gas your opponent into submission. The chokes should be treated as a last ditch option if the suspect is armed, on top of you, or going for your weapon.
Pardon the tardy reply; I've been rather consumed with work concerns for the last while. I don't know that I'm wholly qualified to criticize another who's done more work in that space than I, but I did want to note that he's approaching legitimate problems and has clearly put work in.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleLebowski
I might quibble with some of how Hapki Concepts goes about this or that, but I do so because of arriving at a different opinion from different work; not because they are wrong or less-correct. It's interesting to see the different adaptation of the kimura in support of non-compliant handcuffing; though, we used the gift-wrap more at my old workplace, for a different setup.
I'd rather swap notes than disagree with any of what they've put up, and good for them for both doing the work and putting it online!
(I will admit to giving some side-eye when you see influences from other places showing themselves in a few videos, but c'est la vie.)
On the original topic\Gracie-vid - is there any other option that is generally-issued\easily-taught, that could save an ED victim from their own physiological processes BEFORE they get amped up, beyond the LVNR?
Clarification: Excited Delirium, not Erectile Dysfunction***
I used carotid holds and to a lesser extent brachial stuns extensively in my job. I am not a big guy and tried to end physical situations quickly before anyone got seriously hurt. A neck restraint was sometimes the great equalizer. But they are banned now by law in my area and using a "chokehold" will get one fired, sued and likely prosecuted. I suspect this will be the story throughout most of the country within the next few years at most. It will not be taught to cops and not allowed. So the utility of the technique is a moot point.
You know what we call carotid "holds" in BJJ? Chokes
You know what we call LVNR ("lateral vascular restraints") in BJJ? Chokes
In the grappling world chokes are for rendering someone unconscious, not restraining or "holding them" in place over minutes. Chokes are sunk and used to end the struggle and are treated as such. It seems logical that redefining a choke as a "restraint" would lead to problem with "restrained" individuals losing consciousness and continuing to be "held".
If your "restraint" deprives someone's brain of oxygen, it is having an effect beyond mere "restraint" or "hold".
Grappled competitively for a decade and did other martial arts for 2 more decades (brown belt in BJJ, black belt in Hapkido, black belt in TKD). This thread is the first I've ever heard of a "brachial stun" btw.
Brachial Stun...Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhavpBocyow
Not banned by law here, but banned by policy. At in-service, the following exchange occurred:Quote:
Originally Posted by jd950
"So in a situation where it's shoot someone in the head or choke them, I have to shoot them in the head?"
"Yes."
I'm sure chokes are dangerous. Bullets are more so. But feels and optics matter so much more today then they ever have before. Maybe 'they' won't riot this time if we just (insert whatever here).
Damn...Brachial Stun sure looks like a neck KO to me. Knockouts like that happen in kickboxing and Muay Thai all the time where a dude wraps his leg all the way around some other dudes neck and drops him hard. Reactions from professional athletes with high order conditioning and fighting skills run the gamut from getting unceremoniously dumped to the ground and walking with the ol "concussion shuffle" for the next minute or five, to full blown neurological posturing/fencer's pose.
Sure, maybe you stun their nerves or something though.
Not doubting that it works. Certainly any knockout punch would be a fantastic way to gain compliance, but people overestimate the "Hollywood knockout". When Chuck Norris or Jason Bourne punches the bad guy in the face and he's mercifully unconscious for the next hour (or however long the plot needs him to be out). But he will wake up and go home and drink a coffee, re-think his life of crime and start walking with the Lord again.
The reality of the situation is that if they're not awake by that time, chances are they're dead due to massive brain trauma.
Actual knockouts are like you see in combat sports. The dude loses equilibrium, drops to the ground, the room is spinning, his limbs seem like they've been turned off and his brain is trying to reconnect the wiring to get the lights back on. He might even still be awake. But shortly, the wires are reconnected and everything's moving again.
I blame Walker Texas Ranger for this. But certainly I'd recommend a choke then handcuffing the guy when he's out over repeated brain rattling.
I think you misunderstood my post. Calling pressure to the side of the neck a "choke" does not go over well with the community, city council members or legislators, and is inaccurate. Properly applied, such techniques involve pressure or a blow to the arteries in the neck. That causes someone to feel lightheaded or dizzy so they stop fighting. If maintained for longer, perhaps 10 seconds or so, it can cause brief, painless unconsciousness. Sure, if maintained long enough, it could cause brain damage or death. That is not proper use of the technique. Persons trained in the technique are generally told to call it a "vascular neck restraint" or a "carotid restraint control hold" or similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTacTravis
Pressure or blows to the front of the throat (what most people would think of as "choking," or otherwise interfering with breathing, are forbidden in my world and have been for a long time.
"Restraint" is a broad term used to describe the process of controlling someone. (Merriam-Webster: a means of restraining : a restraining force or influence) Handcuffs are a form of restraint, as is a seat belt, a taser, a court order, or a verbal threat or command. It does not imply any particular time period or degree of force. Since the video referenced in the OP was whether the "chokehold" (which was then described as a carotid hold) should be banned in law enforcement, I responded in that context; sharing that I found it a valuable tool, but one which is now banned, so it does not matter. FWIW, I would rather be subjected to a vascular restraint than a taser (if it worked as it is supposed to).
I sense I may have offended or confused you with my response, and if so, I apologize.
This thread has been showing up as having new posts when it has none constantly. I assume it's because of the guy who looks like the last poster on this thread but isn't there at all. So I'm posting just to break this off, because it's annoying. Let's see if this works.
Seems it worked.
Now back to our previously enjoyed discussion.