Explain Like I'm 5: Weaver/Modern Technique vs. Isosceles

I have been corresponding with Jeff Cooper's daughter. Lindy, and I interviewed her last night. That interview will publish on Monday.

In an email today, I asked about the myth that injury is what led to the bent support arm (applied to Mr. Cooper). Here is what she wrote:

"He smashed his right elbow in a fall on the ice while holding my sister when she was a baby. He went through some very painful rehab and had a dent in his right arm where the elbow bone normally resides.


This had NOTHING to do with the Weaver Stance. The Weaver Stance is what Jack Weaver used and he kept winning so Dad and John Plahn analyzed why this was so and came to the conclusion that an isometric balance is achieved when the strong hand pushes outward and the weak hand pulls inward................and this push-pull effect enables a shooter to better control recoil and regain his sight picture more quickly. That is it."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlw

I have been corresponding with Jeff Cooper's daughter. Lindy, and I interviewed her last night. That interview will publish on Monday.

In an email today, I asked about the myth that injury is what led to the bent support arm (applied to Mr. Cooper). Here is what she wrote:

"He smashed his right elbow in a fall on the ice while holding my sister when she was a baby. He went through some very painful rehab and had a dent in his right arm where the elbow bone normally resides.


This had NOTHING to do with the Weaver Stance. The Weaver Stance is what Jack Weaver used and he kept winning so Dad and John Plahn analyzed why this was so and came to the conclusion that an isometric balance is achieved when the strong hand pushes outward and the weak hand pulls inward................and this push-pull effect enables a shooter to better control recoil and regain his sight picture more quickly. That is it."

---

Thanks, Lee. Your work is helping to dispel a lot of bad info out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RevolverRob

The quote from our late founder is the one that sticks with me the most,





Honestly it boils down to this: repetitive stress injury.

If you shoot modern iso with a firm wrist and tight grip, the recoil has to go somewhere. Repeatedly the elbows flex and can eventually cause tendonitis in the elbows (tennis elbow).

If you shoot the older style with a little bit looser grip and tight arms you recoil goes more into the wrists, you end up with wrist injuries.

Jerry Miculek has commented multiple times that he can no longer feel most of his right hand thumb, due to repetitive nerve injuries on that hand from revolver shooting (which tends to distribute recoil into the web of the shooting hand, due to the squareness of the backstrap).

High-level shotgun competitors usually have shoulder issues.

Shoot enough and it will get you.

What you shoot and how much of it you shoot contributes to how long you have before your hands/arms/wrists/shoulders are eventually damaged beyond your body's ability to repair them. This is one reason to emphasize quality over quantity in terms of training, be it live or dry fire.

---

I was under the impression from numerous people telling me of their injuries that the problem comes from locking the elbows which is how ISO was originally taught. Not saying what you say can't be right also.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MVS

I was under the impression from numerous people telling me of their injuries that the problem comes from locking the elbows which is how ISO was originally taught. Not saying what you say can't be right also.

---

That's true, locked elbows exacerbate the problem and bring the tendonitis on much more quickly. But ultimately Newton's Laws apply. Muzzle goes up and recoil is transferred to the arms in some form or fashion.

That said the more relaxed you are the 'springier' your muscles and tendons tend to be. So being looser helps ward it all off - shoot enough though and joints somewhere will hurt.

That said, today's guns, ammunition, and techniques tend to help mitigate damage. Guys who came up 30 years ago are all hurting today. But guys who came up in the last 10-15 are younger but also seem to be hurting less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rex G

https://www.amazon.com/Stressfire-Vo.../dp/0936279036

Holy Scripture. Read and heed. It covers Weaver to Isosceles to Reverse Weaver, while, if necessary, planted in one spot. IOW, a stance is a moment in time.

Written by P-F member @Mas Ayoob. Use the link so that a portion of your purchase goes into the P-F tip jar.

---

Thank you! A Tome of Enlightenment I still refer to today. 30+ years after having read it. I also frequently refer to "The Truth About Self Protection." So many years later it still applies!

Still a reference as I prepare cop type training. Thank you, @Mas...and @ Rex G.

pat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RevolverRob

That's true, locked elbows exacerbate the problem and bring the tendonitis on much more quickly. But ultimately Newton's Laws apply. Muzzle goes up and recoil is transferred to the arms in some form or fashion.

That said the more relaxed you are the 'springier' your muscles and tendons tend to be. So being looser helps ward it all off - shoot enough though and joints somewhere will hurt.

That said, today's guns, ammunition, and techniques tend to help mitigate damage. Guys who came up 30 years ago are all hurting today. But guys who came up in the last 10-15 are younger but also seem to be hurting less.

---

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CheerySlim...restricted.gif