Good to know! Thanks for the info! I have the equipment and capability. Looks like I might start material shopping! :D
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Good to know! Thanks for the info! I have the equipment and capability. Looks like I might start material shopping! :D
"Are they not? A part is legally a "silencer" if it is "any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication." I would never advise someone that they could come into possession of one of those kits before having a completed Form 1."
Just to be Devil's advocate: one of those '80% kits' either is or isn't a suppressor as delivered. If it isn't a suppressor as delivered, you don't need a Form 1 to have one. If it is a suppressor, you'd need a Form 4 before buying one, not a Form 1, wouldn't you?
To be clear, I dunno whether any particular '80% kit' is legal or not. Do the sellers get ATF letters like the sellers of 80% receivers do?
Followup after inconclusive googling (talking about solvent traps): "While we would advise our clients to file a Form 1 and obtain approval of ATF prior to even purchasing a solvent trap or similar device, so to prevent against constructive possession charges ..."
https://blog.princelaw.com/2016/08/1...solvent-traps/
Of course, 'smart people get the Form 1 approved first' and 'a requirement that you get a form 1 first is logically inconsistent' can both be true.
(FWIW, my Form 1 suppressors start as plain round bar stock. Hopefully buying that is legal :-) )
I would think the delineation of an 80% kit is your legal standing ground. I am making the assumption that the ATF has to sign off with the kit manufacturer that it "isnt" a supressor just like an 80% lower "isnt" a firearm. Otherwise one could potentially be charged for having blueprints, a mill or lathe and a block of aluminum. Additionally if you have applied for a form 1, then I think that would demonstrate your navigating a legal path, in other words your legal intent is documented.
Sort of. If you have the collection of parts, then that alone could potentially be used to show your intent to fabricate a complete silencer. By having the completed Form 1 first (which you're eventually going to have to do anyways), you could mitigate a series of very unfortunate events.Quote:
Originally Posted by whomever
I think you answered your own question. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by whomever
Other than imports, there generally isn't a requirement that ATF "sign-off" on firearms or accessories before they are made available on the commercial market. Many manufacturers consider it the reasonably prudent thing to do (especially for the risk averse), but many others do not submit samples to ATF before going to market.Quote:
Originally Posted by shane45
Here again we have another thread, where people are using the terms "constructive possession," and " constructive intent," improperly. Both are legal terms, that have nothing to do with the ability or intent to construct an item.
I know you probably heard other "gun" people use those terms, in the same way, but it's incorrect and just perpetuating ignorance related to the topic.
If you want to use such terms i suggest busting out a copy of Black's Law Dictionary, and learning what they actually mean, and you will see that they haven't been used properly on this thread.
I'm going to quote myself from a post I wrote on a different board:
Steps for purchasing an already-made NFA firearm (form 4):
- Find someone selling the NFA firearm you want. If it's outside your state, the firearm must first be transferred to an FFL/SOT inside your state. If the seller is also an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers tax-free on a form 3 from one SOT to another. If the seller is not an FFL/SOT, the NFA firearm transfers in a taxed transfer on a form 4.
- Once the firearm arrives at your FFL/SOT dealer, or if you buy it from your dealer, they will help you fill out an ATF form 4 to transfer the firearm to you. If buying in-state from a private seller, the seller should provide the form 4. The dealer or seller should fill out most of this, and any parts that you have to fill out should be self-explanatory.
- Box 15: You must put a reason why you want the firearm. This is just an ATF CYA in case someone is stupid enough to state an illegal purpose, or something that implies illegality. Just use “All lawful purposes.”
- Print out the form in duplex (i.e. on both sides of the paper). ATF policy is to reject forms printed only on one side of the paper.
- If a transfer to a trust, LLC or corporation, fill out a form 5320.23 for each responsible person. A responsible person is a settlor/grantor, trustee, partner, member, officer, director, board member, or owner of the trust, LLC or corporation.
- Get three 2”x2” passport photos taken. Attach them to the form 4 if a transfer to a real person, or to the appropriate form 5320.23 for each responsible person.
- Get fingerprints taken in duplicate of the transferee or each responsible person. Try your sheriff's office or police department. It’s legally OK to take your own fingerprints if you know how, but if you’ve not done it before it’ll be easier and likely have lower odds of rejection for illegible prints if someone who has been trained to do so takes the prints.
- Make out a check to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Use a personal check so that you can see when it clears. Then you'll know when the paperwork's been received and the approval process has started.
- Make a photocopy of the front of the form 4 for your records.
- Mail the CLEO copy to the CLEO.
- Mail everything else to the address on the form 4.
- Wait. Watch your bank statement and see when the ATF cashes your check. They do it at the very beginning of the process, so don’t get all excited yet. But at least you know your paperwork has been received and the process has started.
- Wait some more. There is always a backlog of forms to be processed, so your form goes into a queue. When your form is processed, the ATF takes the information off of the form 4 and inputs it into the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record (NFRTR), their database of all legal NFA firearms. Anytime an NFA firearm is manufactured or transferred, the ATF is supposed to update the NFRTR.
- Wait even longer. Seriously, it can take a really long time. The NFA Tracker is a website which will let you see how long other people have had to wait for their forms to be approved, and will let you estimate how long it will take for your form’s approval.
- If your transfer is taking longer than other people who submitted their forms around the same time, call the ATF’s NFA Branch at 304-616-4500 and ask for your transfer’s status. They will ask for the name of the transferor, the name of the transferee (you or your trust/LLC) and the serial number of the gun. This is the reason to save a photocopy of the form 4.
- When the approved form 4 arrives at the transferor, pick up the gun and the approved form 4 from the seller. The form will have a canceled tax stamp affixed to it, which is the proof that the transfer tax was paid.
- Make copies of the form. Take the copies when you go shooting in case the police or range master wants to make sure the gun is legal. Store the original form somewhere secure like your gun safe or a safe deposit box. Remember above where I said the ATF is "supposed to update the NFRTR?" Well, mistakes happen. They've gotten a lot better than in past decades, but it's still a possibility. The ATF is supposed to retain the duplicate form 4 which you sent, but if they lose it, your gun might show up as unregistered. Having the original form to prove that the gun is in fact registered will make your life easier if that happens. Don’t laminate the original form, as that makes authenticating it as an original more difficult.
Steps for making an NFA firearm (form 1):
It's also possible to legally make your own NFA firearm, as long as it's not a machine gun. You can either build the gun from scratch, or modify a normal firearm into an NFA firearm. The process to make an NFA firearm is very similar to the transfer of an NFA firearm.
- Engrave the name of the entity which is making the gun (you or your trust/LLC/corporation; whoever is listed as the applicant in box 3b on the form 1), and the entity’s city & state on the gun. Have the engraving done first. This way if the engraver screws up the engraving or the gun gets lost in the mail to or from the engravers you'll have fewer problems. The engraving must be at least .003" deep. A local trophy shop or similar engraver usually won’t engrave the letters deep enough; you’ll probably need to send the gun to an FFL/SOT who does firearm engraving.
- Fill out an ATF form 1 in triplicate. Instead of using a paper form 1, use eForms to submit an electronic form 1 to the ATF. eForms are typically much faster approvals than paper forms. Form 4's are not in the eForms system yet, but will be coming sometime in the future. The ATF will snail-mail fingerprint cards to the submitter, which then have to be filled out and snail-mailed back to the ATF. The form 1 (both paper and eForm versions) are pretty self-explanatory and have instructions included, but here's a few tips.
- Box 4c: Caliber. Put the actual caliber, even if the gun is marked “Multi.”
- Box 4e: Barrel length. Put the actual barrel length. Muzzle devices that are not permanently attached are not included in the barrel length.
- Box 4f: Overall length. Firearms with folding stocks should be measured with the stocks opened to their fullest extent.
- There is no limitation on future changes to another caliber, to the barrel length or to the OAL. The ATF just asks that they be notified if it’s a permanent modification. If you do this, a letter sent to the NFA Branch will suffice; there is no specific form.
- Other than the engraving requirement for NFA firearms you manufacture, the remainder of the process is pretty similar to a transfer on a form 4.
- Once you receive the approved form 1, make the NFA firearm. Depending on the firearm, this may be as simple as attaching a short upper on an AR15, or as complicated as firing up your lathe, drill press and/or CNC machine if you’re more mechanically inclined.
If it's already a firearm, such as a frame/receiver you intend to build into a short barreled rifle or shotgun, then you must (not probably) use a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) for the engraving, not some "non-licensee" business, like most "trophy shops." Engraving firearms is "gunsmithing," and therefore a business that engraves firearms is "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms," and therefore must have an "FFL," to do it legally.Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverNickname
I guess I wasn't clear; I meant more that you have the option of engraving it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF13