https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...-shooting.html
I carry one of these knives, but it is concealed behind a pouch on my vest. I am going try to find a better place to put it.
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https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/201...-shooting.html
I carry one of these knives, but it is concealed behind a pouch on my vest. I am going try to find a better place to put it.
I carry trauma shears behind a pouch on my vest. I’d be violating policy. I carry a spare rifle mag on my vest too. But I’m in Tactical so I’d be good.
I've heard from Soldiers recently deployed they were coached up the same for the same reason. Folks had been stabbed with their own knives while managing individuals they were not trying to shoot when it was worn too openly accessible. Instead rig it behind an ammo pouch or some other piece of gear they strap on that I wouldn't understand.
I have been carrying an Emerson PUK for a few years now. 10ish months ago I got a RCS Pocket Shield and attached the PUK to that. It works great as a “pocket” knife. Very stable, comfortable and accessible. It carries flat enough that it doesn’t interfere with a tourniquet either. The knife rides low enough in the majority of my pants that the handle is completely hidden. I work plain clothes so I have lots of discretion with regards to what I wear.
They are going to get cops kilt in the streets. The possibility of that legitimate once or twice in decade knife use in fight, far outweighs the implications of getting stabbed with your own knife, or facing criminal charges for manufacturing a deadly force encounter or planting evidence.
That there even needs to be a policy for this, is disappointing. The best way to not get slapped with stupid policy, is to not create stupid situations.
It's not a rule here, but I have "the talk" with any officer I see wearing an exposed knife. Too difficult to retain and often worn in a way that's easier for a suspect to grab than the officer.
About fifteen years ago, I predicted that eventually, an agency would shoot a guy with buckshot when they meant to shoot him with an LTL round, and that agency would probably be Portland. When it happened a few years after that, I was very sorry to be right, considering how tragically it worked out.
I work in downtown Portland, and two years ago a co-worker commented on all the "pig-stickers" he saw strapped to PPB vets, and I predicted that sooner or later one was going to get taken away by a bad actor.
The shit that you can't see coming is bad enough. It's always frustrating when it is something that could have been foreseen.
What those ^^^^^^^ guys said. I have always preferred a fixed blade for potential defensive use. For day to day cutting finger print tape, ligature, evidence bags, seat belts (once in 21 years), fruit, sandwiches, hospital bands, and any of the other things I have had to cut in the line of duty, I much prefer a one hand folder, and more and more lately, shears or a strap cutter.
Just last week I got into a knock down drag out with drunk EDP in the ED, had her under control, preparing to move to a gurney to be restrained. In the confusion a well-meaning charge nurse gave the EDP a syringe full of night night stuff, and then had an "aw shit" moment when she pulled the needle out and realized she now had an uncapped, contaminated sharp that she now had it in close proximity to two cops, two security guards, the three more nurses, and the EDP. The nurse did not have the presence of mind to flip the plastic cap over the needle. My backup officer took the needle and immediately safed it. 25 years ago on the ambulance I would have pulled the needle out and stepped on it, pinning it under my boot till I could recap it, which was very much against protocol. She knew what she needed to do, but not ever having done it before (or even visualized it )in a violent real world situation caused her to vapor lock and fail to finish the job. To be fair, she is very good at her job, and could not be expected have even considered this scenario. During the debrief we all agreed....secure then medicate on a violent person, and if secure is a momentary respite of compliance holds, deliver the meds and make it her priority to immediately safe the needle. Not wave it around so someone would take it and safe it for you.
I do run a Halvalon Piranta with a gut hook in my on body trauma kit, but only because it fits better in the full pouch than even the compact shears. A compact strap cutter is on the list for the next uniform allowance. My big kit has big shears, and my active shooter bag has another set.
pat
And that's an example of the fact that when you have good leadership, you need fewer policies.
Extending this policy to EMT shears was probably unnecessary. I used shears pretty frequently. It's actually a safer way to cut somebody out of a seat belt. But when you make a policy after a negative outcome, agencies often throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I suspect that this policy was driven more by the fact that a suspect was shot than by any concern about an officer being potentially filleted by his or her own knife. That said, requiring fixed and even folding blades to be concealed makes sense to me.
I have seen arguments that such a policy is foolish because Tasers and pepper spray is carried openly. True enough, but those are less lethal weapons while a blade is absolutely deadly, especially in close quarters. I'd rather risk a Taser deployment or OC exposure than a stab wound.
I do agree that prohibited trauma shears from being carried openly may be a bridge too far.
Sorry, my overly long nurse example was meant to illustrate that when you pull out a fixed blade you are pretty much married to it. If the situation changes as you cut the noose off of someone's neck and then you have a non lethal fight with a suicidal person, (BTDT, even seen it on Cops), you gotta do something. Resheathing in a hurry is something not too many practice. Or even consider. A one handed folder, that I had, was easy to safe and be rid of, and shears or strap cutter would have been better.
pat
You at least have to undo a thumb snap and rock a hood to get my Taser. You have to undo a thumb snap and get my OC out of the pouch then orient it to get your thumb under the safety flap. How often do the openly displayed knives have any retention vs yank-and-stick ready?
Even without a deliberate attempt for somebody to yank it out, I think there's a non-trivial chance of many knives coming out of the sheath during a rough and tumble.
ETA:
Did anyone else see Chief Outlaw's quote “It was created after proactively identifying a shortcoming in policy,’’ Outlaw told The Oregonian/OregonLive on Tuesday.
Can you really say the word "proactive" in this case with a straight face?
X's 10
I have zero problems with the issue regarding secure positioning of equipment, but the above IS the reason for the attention.
I will also politely take issue with Mr. Polfus' statement: "When you create the exigency that led to somebody being shot because you lost control of your own weapon, that's a really bad day at work."
He did create the exigency; he did not "lose control" of his weapon in any greater sense than an officer could "lose control" during a firearm disarmament. The perpetrator intentionally created the exigency when he, by force, removed the weapon from the officer, and then intentionally failed to surrender the weapon and obey lawful commands.
I am not suggesting that there cannot be safer types and methods of equipping oneself, but I think that it is inaccurate to blame the officer for the conduct of the perpetrator.
Not saying that your argument is wrong, but do you carry a baton? If so does it have retention? I haven't seen a retention holster for a baton, and if someone gets a hold of that it becomes a deadly force incident. I am not seeing any one say batons shouldn't be carried.
There seems to be an opportunity for some enterprising individual or company to create a pouch that securely holds a knife and requires an officer to manipulate the pouch to access a knife. If such a product existed, it would alleviate the need for the policy.
My collapsible does, though limited to friction and it needing to come straight up or else it binds and won't come out. It's significantly harder to access by someone facing me or entangled with me then a knife carried in the manner we are talking about, and really the OC is probably the easiest thing to get. If I'm carrying my riot stick, it does not have retention, but of course that's a different application.
There are thumb lock sheathes. I've got one, although it's for a neck knife.
There's also this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=CFMVpTcRcD8
I don't know anyone who's specifically making one for duty belts or MOLLE vests, though I've not really looked.
An Austin PD officer was very seriously injured, by a suspect who grabbed the officer’s fixed-blade knife from its sheath, which was mounted the front area of the duty belt rig. Very nearly died, as I remember it.
I had already been advising my rookies to keep their knives positioned with safety in mind, and this APD incident provided a local, cite-able example.
I believe that the main reason Houston PD cracked-down on external “tactical” armor, worn by patrol officers, was because officers were wearing magazines, knives, and such, “AT” people. External Level III armor had been specifically allowed, for patrol officers, in the wake of the BLM-related terrorist incidents, but then, the rule was modified so that donning such armor was limited to specific situations. (I actually kept wearing my plates, as they were not adorned with anything more than a radio holder, on a side panel, and one night, when I backed-up the chief, who had stopped a suspected drunk driver, he had no problem with my discreetly-worn plate carrier.)
The primary point that I wanted to make was to counter the tendency by agencies and others to "victim shame" the officer for the malicious act of the offender. (As jnc36rcpd alluded to, it is quite possible that if this incident was solely about an officer being injured, it might not have ever become notable.)
I wholeheartedly support the continuous honing of better practices for officer safety (and have conducted many "counseling sessions").
I will not shift the blame from a criminal actor onto the officer. All of these perpetrators have the full liberty at any time to simply surrender to a lawful command. That they choose not to do so does not place any onus upon the officer.
This thread has given me pause. For years I’ve kept my fixed blade on my vest because I can employ it with either hand. I had a custom kydex sheath made that mounts a BFG TQ Now on top. Partly to make the blade less obvious and mostly because I wanted a centerline TQ I could easily reach with either hand.
That said I wonder if JMCK or Dark Star Gear could make me something similar that has retention. I’m also curious what good retention is out there for sheaths other than an old school snap/strap. They tend to get in the way when stowing the blade unless using two hands. Oh if only Gerber made a smaller version of their Tac II.
The good news is I work investigations so I’m usually only wearing kit for pre-planned activities. Occasionally though I’m involved in jump outs/gang sweeps. I’m open to suggestions from anyone for a better system or placement.
Current configuration.
https://i.imgur.com/ZB7cNkk_d.jpg?ma...idelity=medium
ETA: there is now a flashlight pouch in the open spot right of the TQ as the photo is viewed (my left as I wear it).
Have you thought of a full-flap(velcro) nylon pouch that your existing knife and sheath would slide into (interference fit). Attach to the vest by exposing your existing attachment point (cutting through rear of nylon pouch).
Concealed from view, but access is nothing more than rip the flap up, grab, yank and shank.
Just some food for thought...
The fixed version of the Benchmade Adamas comes with a short piece of webbing with two snaps that closes to hold the knife in, but can be swiped off with the thumb like a thumb break to release it. I wonder if that has any viability as a solution toward the problem at hand?
Attachment 35725
https://www.bladehq.com/item--Benchm...n-Fixed--10403
Likely better than nothing. My concern is working the retention (whatever kind) under stress and wearing gloves. That’s why many folks, myself are included, have fixed blades. Working a folder in those conditions is problematic. Something akin to the Safarland ALS is what I’d love to have.
If you need a knife you probably need it in a hurry. The challenge is to find a way to carry it discreetly without giving up the ability to draw it quickly.
It's one thing to carry a fixed blade knife on your vest or carrier when it's obviously a knife (i.e. a big obvious handle). It's another thing to have a knife that is low-profile and would be difficult for a suspect to grab. This is the setup I run and I think it's fairly secure and low-vis. Though I'm definitely open to critiques, and this thread has me reconsidering whether the negatives outweigh the positives. Disallowing trauma shears seems completely unnecessary though.
Attachment 35747
How much of this is hardware solutions/failures to a software issue? IIRC, the SOCP dagger was the hardware that was optimized to go along with Greg Thompson's combatives program for doorkickers. Is at least part of the problem that troopers are sticking this, or even more accessible knives to their upper centerline, without any training on real close range grappling?
Not intended as a knock on anyone, in this thread or on the streets, just food for thought.
Mine is the serrated version, but otherwise yes, hence my reconsideration. Ironically, I almost passed on this knife because it doesn't have much of a handle and can be relatively difficult to access compared to the K-Bar and Ademas knives. So I'm surprised (and somewhat skeptical) that a legally blind person was able to recognize and and grab this knife off of a plate carrier. He could have just been blindly grabbing at the officer and got (un)lucky. I'm not saying it didn't happen, only that the odds of this happening seem very, very low. The odds of needing to use the knife is very low as well though, so I'm definitely reconsidering. But I've put a lot of time and sweat into training with this specific knife, so I'm hesitant to switch to something new. One of the upside of this knife is that it comes with a cheap trainer, which makes training much easier.
My old agency provided a multi day edged weapons combatives course. Folders were emphasized, one in each of two pants pockets allowing access with either hand, and one in the plate pocket of the body armor. About half of ran a fixed blade in our armor. Cold Steel was the preferred blades because they were used prominently in the course materials and Cold Steel used to give away all those VHS Proof videos. I did not find the Voyager series to be so super fantastic, and their Ginsu like serrations turned me off from day one. The really innovative designs got discontinued or made more cheaply and there is a list of Cold Steel I really wished I held onto and even stocked up when I had the chance.
I was already heavily invested in Spyderco, and have carried a Military folder in uniform for over 20 years. It gets used for everything and is easy and relatively safe to open and close one handed under stress. Big pockets in the rear of 5-11 pants greatly help in that aspect. I think the constant use, to include one handed closing and securing is what makes so easy for me to use it under stress.
I like the Rescue variant of the SOCP with everything but the strap cutter blunted.
At the risk of pissiing a few off, I remember how fond Pat Rogers was of the Strider on his holster's leg shroud. It was there for one reason. A team environment when deliberate operations are the rule and not the exception are different animals than patrol (even tactical patrol like crime suppression and gang unit type stuff). Most guys I see with fixed blades exposed seem to be of the "dunno, looks cool" reasoning. There is very little thought to employment, and as I pointed out before, stowing to free hands. Officer Survival is the stock answer I frequently get, but these guys don't seem to seek out training or even sporadic practice. Same to a lesser extent with the K-bar sticking up like a boomerang from behind the mag pouches. Remember the old Caliber Press Surviving Edged Weapons video? It can be called fearmongering at one level, but it was to sole resource available for a lotta years. I still remember the officer carrying the folder behind his speed loader pouches and being stabbed by a handcuffed suspect due to poor blade positioning and prisoner control. Staged and scripted, but point learned just the same. In many cases those running fixed blades have a great solution in search of a problem.
Very few gun grabs that I have seen in my career started out as intentional gun grabs. The norm seems to be a scuffle where the suspect's hand finds the gun, recognizes it, and tries to avail the opportunity. I would imagine access to blades to be similar, and would bet the odds of an intentional grab would be a bit higher since many figure "it is only a knife", and think in terms of the object and not Ability, Opportunity, Immediate Jeopardy and lethal force.
I get the desire for a hideout last ditch lethal weapon. I greatly prefer a good one handed folder for 99.9% of day to day use, including pressing it into use as a last ditch lethal weapon. But I am dinosaur. I also think 90% of the guys running thigh rigs shouldn't be, and I even buy the back pain argument.
pat
The SOCP carries well with a strip of Velcro on an inner vest, aligned with buttons on a uniform shirt, remaining accessible with either hand. Or so I’m told....
As with all things, it requires practice that most are not willing to undertake. I see a number of(usually new) officers conspicuously carrying fixed blades, usually TDI’s, center mounted on their duty belts. A quick discussion usually corrects the issue.
Better training, not liability driven policies.
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That is how I used to carry my REKAT Hobbit Fang on my armor, using velcro behind the plate . I had to carry high up as our issue uniform shirts only had working buttons at the top, over the zipper.
pat
The TDI Hinderer knives have locking sheaths. I haven't handled one personally.
https://www.amazon.com/KA2486-BRK-TD...r=8-1-fkmrnull
I don’t get them wanting to take mags off the vest. I moved mine there still in front just like most carry them on a belt, but it gets weight off the belt which is why I wear an external carrier with pouches to begin with.
I personally wouldn’t mount a fixed blade knife to the front of my vest though.