https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/0...rits-shooting/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LejzQQdVfzk
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Alcohol may be involved.
He may have a bit of explaining to do.
"When the agent retrieved his handgun, an unintended discharge occurred".
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Being armed
Going to bars
Consuming alcohol
Doing back flips on the dance floor
Allowing pistol to fall out of holster and hit the floor
Picking it up by the trigger
What could possibly go wrong?
Whether or not I dance, I could never do a back-flip, or a front flip, either, for that matter.
J. Edgar would have immediately fired that idiot. The kinder, gentler FBI of today, well, we shall see.
FBI - Foolhardy Breakdancing Incidents
(Having done some foolhardy things myself back in the day, I'll not comment further lest I tempt lightning.)
Added video to OP. Was Agent Dipshit wearing a holster?
This scenario thrusts upon us an entirely new dimension of FAIL.
um yeah. This is really stacking up the memes for the FBI.
Terrifying level of fail, since a bystander got shot.
Good thing for the agent that Denver homicide is only investigating a shooting, and not, you know... a homicide.
Hadn't seen the video before now. Call me crazy, but I think that even if I was confident that I could do a backflip and that my holster would retain the gun in that scenario, I'd refrain from doing so while carrying, simply because it seems like that would be an easy way to fail at concealment. Losing the gun on the floor like that just seems like extra bonus fail, and of course touching the trigger while retrieving it, well, not much needs to be said there...
I wonder what his next employment will be. I hope he does not start a firearms training course. He should be banned from having a gun for life. I wonder if it will get him on the NICS no gun list.
This is an ignorant statement.
While these circumstances are unique, and there should, and likely will be some consequene for the Agent, any one can have an ND. The more you handle firearms the greater the odds. Many big name “expert” firearms trainers have had NDs, Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper, Mas Ayoob and Travis Haley to name a few. Should they all be barred from firearms ownership ?
We mitigate as best we can but in the real world it’s not a matter of if, but when and how bad.
To speak plainly, Shit happens.
Co-founder of this forum on the "safety sin".
https://pistol-training.com/archives/1241
https://pistol-training.com/archives/8265
How many of the people you mention had the negligent dicharge doing a backflip while dancing in a nightclub? Add to that the fact that the gun was IWB in small of back without a holster. Of course anyone could have an accidental discharge. All are negligent to some degree but I betting your body in mid air with an unholstered gun IWB seems to me to be the pinnacle of carelessness. If he did not do,that or had the gun properly holstered it would not have not dropped out and he would not have fired it while having to pick it up. This FBI Agent redefined negligent gun handling. I do not see my statement as ignorant. It was informed. If you actually think the agent’s actions were acceptable on the basis that anyone can have an accident than I think that is a failure of judgement.
He, though, should be banned from working for Arthur Murray's Tactical Dance Institute. HCM is correct. Even the best do. I know one well known instructor who shot his dash board. I saw another very well known instructor (never point your gun, etc.) when asked by a student about a draw stroke, drew his gun on the student to demonstrate. It was hot and he turned white with horror. He dropped and did 50 for a penance.
Despite his dance moves, he basically flashed through all we know about gun safety as he panicked in front of a crowd and want to get the gun back in control.
Don't point your gun at ... At a match (I designed the stage), where you had to rescue a heavy dummy. The stage was oriented to put right handed shooters under some cognitive stress as to how to navigate it (take that you right handed SOBs). My buddy, a very experience shooter, got turned around and faced the crowd. He shook his head, took the DQ and just drove away.
Now is dancing a good stress innoculation exercise? That is a different story.
The problem is the part of the statement that he should be banned from having a gun for life. That's like saying someone who would vote for Trump or Hillary - should be banned from voting for life. Which is a damn good idea, IMHO.
*warning, That Guy mode activated*
I can. If I start on top of a ladder and am not required to survive the attempt.
*That Guy mode deactivated*
In all seriousness, when you carry a gun constantly you forget you've got a gun on just like you aren't constantly aware of your wallet in your pocket or (if you wear glasses) glasses perched on your nose. You only notice when something's wrong. Like it hits the floor. My very first carry holster was...and Uncle Mike's sausage sack. I had ordered a "good" holster but wanted to carry my Taurus 85CH (shut up) before it could arrive. I sat down and the good ol' Uncle coughed my .38 out and onto the floor. The act of sitting was like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, only with a gun and shit holster. I was acutely aware of the gun for awhile since it was both novel and I'd already dropped it. These days, with good gear and decades of carrying, it's only noticeable in it's absence.
It was the backflip with the improperly secured gun (holster or not) that was most negligent. If you are going to do backflips with a gun you really ought to have a holster that offers reliable positive retention. He lost possession of his gun in a dance Stunt. If he had not done that the gun would never have hit the floor and he would not have had to retrieve it. No one would have been shot. I am done
You are done but do you still think he should be banned from guns for life?
Should everyone who caused a car accident be banned from driving for life. Yes, goddamn it - that moron who ruined my shoulder by crashing into a line of stopped cars!
Acceptable no. And the consequences will be more severe if alcohol was involved but I’ve seen worse.
This might be a get fired level screw up but Felony / lifetime bar of firearms ownership ? No.
People who carry guns live their lives. I’m not, and never have been much of a bar person (nor am I fan of SOB carry) but the fact is, whether they drink or not, young men go to these places because young women are there. You remember being young ?
It certainly appears this Agent forgot he was carrying a gun and reacted quickly, though badly when things went wrong.
To answer your question none of those cited were dancing but Bill Jordan ND’ed while “dry” firing / coonfingering another Agents new revolver and killed a Border Patrol Agent in an adjoining office. He was a supervisor with 20 ish years on the job when their ocvurred.
Jeff Cooper, THE Creator of the four rules, shot his gas meter while “dry” firing. Why would you dryfire at something that may blow up your house ?
I will also reiterate, most cops are not gun people and many don’t even carry off duty so not sure where the comment about him opening up a fireams school came from. Cops gun skills and knowledge are a bell curve, the majority in the middle are competent to they level they are trained to and what they are familiar with or issued.
Letting your guard down by thinking you are “too good” or “too informed” to have an ND is a big step in the eventual cascade of failure.
at least Mas didn't do a back flip first.
What's the penalty for a normal citizen who negligently discharges a firearm and causes injury to an innocent bystander? That would appear to be what happened, so I would think that whatever the law in the state where this occurred prescribes should be applied, completely independent of this person's status as a federal agent. As to whether the bureau fires him, I would assume that's defined in bureau policy, and would be handled separately from whatever criminal charges are appropriate.
I’m not familiar with the specifics of Colorado law but in general, Circumstances dictate. There is no one size fits all answer. A big factor in both the criminal and admin investigations will be whether or not he had been drinking.
You are correct that there will be both a local criminal investigation and a seperate agency admin investigation. That would be true of any LEO in this situation. Admin wise even if it was completely unintentional, embarrassing the agency is always a factor.
I will say this, the video is pretty clear evidence this is unintentional. Unfortunately, I’ve seen attempts to pass off some very shady circumstances as NDs.
well, as long as Mr. Ayoob is here, i object to the term "least unsafe" in his latest write up.
there is safe, and there is unsafe. Up was not safe.
but, since i don't have all sorts of fancy credentials, and am not nationally known for much of anything, it's pretty easy to dismiss me and my observations. others, with far more certificates on their walls have opined on this, and you can search and read their thoughts.
but UP was not a safe direction that day.
The whole thing reminds me of an analysis of an aviation accident, where there are multiple points along the error chain where the chain could have been broken and the accident avoided. Here was the chain.
Holster without sufficient retention, tough holster position for holstering.
Vigorous dancing.
Dropped gun.
Grabbing gun by trigger in haste to recover it.
Covering someone with the muzzle.
Almost any one break in that chain would have prevented the accident. The good news is he didn’t shoot himself in the back holstering, which is almost surprising given the rest of what happened.
On the bright side, he didn't line up a bunch of Asian bar patrons at gunpoint in NYC and threaten to call Immigration because someone had the temerity to ignore the quarter he had placed on the pool table and play ahead of him.
(Yeah, I had that case early on in my career...lucky me. He didn't survive his probationary period.)
There are two events.
Retention failure - which did not result in a discharge.
Handling failure - which did.
This is obviously a chain of events sequence to which others could be added (going to the party, perhaps alcohol, dancing, armed back flip while not engaged in a Kung Fu altercation, etc.)
The lesson I take from this, as a non-professional, is that if you do drop your weapon... STOP... focus... even if all eyes are on you. Seems it was the rush to grab the pistol while his brain was still in the "oh shit" phase which led to the mistake. He was off balance and grabbing for it.
Shows how easily bad shit can happen if you're not fully focused on the immediate task.
Somewhere right now an FBI agent is breathing a sigh of relief. He was thinking of ways to explain to his boss about how he screwed up. Instead he now knows his opening line will be “Boss before you get too mad, at least I’m not as fucked up as that agent in the bar.”