Week 399: Favorite Weapons

Week 399: Favorite Weapons

Results may be posted until December 20th, 2020.

Designed by: JHC and Gabe White, inspired by Miyamoto Musashi
Range: 7 and 25 yards
Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target
Start Position: Ready
Rounds Fired: Varies (at least 20)

This is intended as a short comparison of a shooter's capability with different handguns. The drill is shot from ready and uses no more than five shots per string in order to be capacity and holster-neutral.

The scoring will be very simple: score = time, plus penalties. A/B/-0 zones are no penalty. C/-1 zone is + 0.5 seconds per shot. D/-3 zone is + 1.5 seconds per shot. Misses are + 2.5 seconds per shot. No make-up shots allowed.

Pick at least two guns to use for this drill. More is great too.

String 1: Place the target at 7 yards. At the start signal, shoot 3 body and 2 head. Record your hits and time.

String 2: Place the target at 25 yards. At the start signal, shoot 5 body. Record your hits and time.

Repeat String 1 and 2 for each gun you're going to use.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Target used
Gun used
Score (time plus penalties) for String 1
Score (time plus penalties) for String 2
Total score (String 1 + String 2)
Anything you noticed

Please report the above for each gun you used!

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

This was fun. I took it a little further to include some additional drills to expand the comparison. The data tables are screen captures from my OneNote range journal and they are BIG, but it is taking too long to mess around and make them smaller.

Target used: IDPA with 3x5 headbox
Pistols used: HK P30 (LEM and DA/SA), Gen5 Glocks (19, 17 and 19MOS with RMR)
All ammo was Wolf 115 grain

I ran the drill in duplicate for each pistol comparison. Observations are at the end.

Comparison 1: HK P30 LEM and Gen5 Glock 19

Attachment 63508

Comparison 2: HK P30 DA/SA and Gen5 Glock 17

Attachment 63509

Comparison 3: HK P30 LEM and Gen5 Glock 19MOS + RMR

Attachment 63510

Anything you noticed: I think I could get used to liking the DA/SA P30 if I give it a chance. I like how the G17 recoils and speed for up close shots, but not really anything else. I've never warmed up to the full size Glock frames even though I understand the advantages. This G17 in particular gives me no confidence at 25 yards and I don't have the ammo, time or discipline to get better with it at distance.

I shot the P30 LEM and the Gen5 G19 (iron sights and RMR) almost exactly the same, with a slight advantage to the P30 for accuracy at 25 yards.

I took the comparison of the P30 LEM and G19 + RMR a bit further than this Drill of the Week…

7 yards, one handed draw from concealment to a 3.5 index card (scored the same as the previous test regarding misses), 2 shots each for three repetitions per hand:

Attachment 63511

Anything you noticed: I anticipated that the G19 would be easier to shoot one handed from the draw in comparison to the P30, especially weak hand, but it wasn't that different on the clock. The P30 felt bulkier and floppier, but I had less concern about getting on the trigger too early with the weak hand draw from concealment.

A big challenge with both pistols drawing and shooting one handed was keeping all of my shots on the target. With the G19 on the first rep strong hand draw, I fired two rounds before I had a sight picture. One stayed on the target and the other didn't. I was lucky one stayed on target, because I didn't mean to fire either round.

I missed two shots with the P30 strong hand only as well, but I saw the shots miss. Still misses, but the trigger pull was deliberate, although messy. An interesting advantage to the P30 LEM is that it's tough for my trigger finger to outrun my sight picture.

I finished with 3x FAST drills from concealment, hands in front of body in a defensive position:

Attachment 63512

Anything you noticed: Three clean runs in a row with the P30 LEM, with better times in comparison to the G19 + RMR. The time difference was a surprise, but I think a big part of it was that the P30 has a more natural index from the holster for me in comparison to the G19. I don't have to think about where the P30 is pointing, even though I've been shooting the G19 for a longer period of time.

Here are the targets after all of the drills (target misses from the one hand shooting from concealment). Overall accuracy was better with the P30, but several of the Glock outliers were from the Gen5 G17.

HK P30
Attachment 63513

Glocks
Attachment 63514

Pistols shot the most today
Attachment 63515

Favorite Weapons Rimfire Edition!!!

IDPA with paper plate for 8" circle since my target was pretty worn out.

Guns - CZ P09 with kadet kit and S&W 617 w/ vortex venom

CZ P09 run 1 - String 1 4.71 clean String 2 8.79+.5 = 9.29 Total - 14 seconds

CZ P09 run 2 - String 1 2.15 clean String 2 6.39 clean Total - 8.54

617 run 1 - String 1 2.71 clean String 2 5.49 clean Total - 8.2

617 run 1 - String 1 2.26 clean String 2 4.00 Total 6.26


I ran each test twice with the first run at a conservative pace looking to clean it and the second pushing speed. I misread the directions and thought I needed the 4" circle in the head box or I would have shaved a few tenths more had i noticed I just needed the headbox (thought I had more penalties up until I reread the op while posting).

Had a failure to feed that required tap/rack on the first string with the CZ(4.71 with 2.82 being the tap rack after a second strike). Obviously dots help things. But wheel guns with dots are super cool and I'll take them for a fun day at the range every time, even though I may be a touch slower up close.

https://i.postimg.cc/mgKpsLbv/20201121-115720.jpg
CZ run 1 @ 7

https://i.postimg.cc/3N9b52R1/20201121-115733.jpg
damn ftf

https://i.postimg.cc/JhJ67f0G/20201121-115837.jpg
CZ run 1 @ 25

https://i.postimg.cc/SshZngYV/20201121-115959.jpg
CZ run 2 @ 7

https://i.postimg.cc/dVhNpkKR/20201121-120056.jpg
CZ run 2 @ 25

https://i.postimg.cc/YqnydNTq/20201121-120401.jpg
617 run 1 @ 7

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYLQdzcN/20201121-120528.jpg
617 run 1 @ 25

https://i.postimg.cc/MKKF03PF/20201121-120717.jpg
617 run 2 @ 7

https://i.postimg.cc/fLf8mYxs/20201121-120819.jpg
617 run 2 @ 25

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr_White

Week 399: Favorite Weapons

Target used
Gun used
Score (time plus penalties) for String 1
Score (time plus penalties) for String 2
Total score (String 1 + String 2)
Anything you noticed

---

Great fun. Must try a couple other favorites next week!

SA 9mm Operator

string 1, 7 yards - 2.41 plus .5 for a C = 2.91
string 2, 25 yards - 7.96 no penalties
TOTAL 10.87

RTF2 G22
string 1, 7 yards - 3.46 no penalties
string 2, 25 yards - 8.00 plus .5 for a C = 8.50
TOTAL 11.96

Then, as an afterthought - my DELIGHTFUL Ruger 10-22 Compact; 16" barrel, FO sights, just 4 whimsical pounds.

string 1, 7 yards - 2.13 no penalties
string 2, 25 yards - 1.94 plus .5 = 2.44
TOTAL 4.57

Observations.

In general, 25 yard shooting on the clock demands "patience" on the sights. Mixing 1911s and Glocks a LOT, my sense is that for me adequate patience using the single action trigger to be more mentally challenging than the Glock trigger with greater take up and trigger travel.

I've been shooting the G22 a fair bit recently and have been really pleased with the results. This day, with cold hands the gun was noticeably harder to to run ie grip, perceived recoil - than last few times in milder temps.

I know I can do a lot better with the 10-22 when I get the hang of the trigger reset which seems longer. Shitfire that gun is a grin to shoot stuff like this.

I ran this the other day but did not repeat the strings. So 1 each of string 1 and string 2.

G-4 G-17 string one 3.22 +0 string 2 4.69 +1 = 8.41
G-3 G-19 string one 3.23 +0 string 2 5.64 + .5 = 9.87
S&W 43c string one 3.66 +0 string 2 6.56 +2.0 = 12.22

I went back out today and did it all over and repeated the strings.

G-4 G-17 string 1 2.92 +.5 string 2 4.85 + 3.0 = 10.77 repeat S-1 2.87 +0 S-2 4.92 + 3.0 = 10.79 total = 21.56
G-3 G-19 string 1 2.76 +.5 string 2 4.46 + 4.5 = 12.22 repeat S-1 2.93 +0 S-2 4.84 + 1.5 = 9.27 total = 21.49
S&W 43c string 1 3.53 + 0 string 2 6.28 + 5.0 = 14.81 repeat S-1 2.95 +0 S-2 5.66 + 2.0 = 10.61 total = 25.42

Anything I noticed: my 25 yard accuracy was lacking. :( I even had a couple misses. My excuse was it was cold and the sun was low to the side and messing up with my sights. ;)

The S&W 43c is my everyday, all day pocket gun. It has the white bead front sight with the groove back sight. I carry CCI Velociters in it which is a 40 grain bullet that goes 970 fps through that short barrel. My belt gun is the G-19.

I would like to run this again with a 38 J-Frame and a Glock 43.

Nice drill.

8" plate for -0 and uspsa headbox

Beretta 92dxr and Wilson Brig Tac

92dxr

String 1 - 3.37 clean

String 2 - 6.79 +.5 = 7.29

Total - 10.66

https://i.postimg.cc/dtp88rVh/20201129-110135.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/C1c8df2L/20201129-110353.jpg


Brig Tac

String 1 - 2.80 Clean

String 2 - 4.98 +1 = 5.98

Total - 8.78

https://i.postimg.cc/GpJGwfJD/20201129-110600.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/1X4qF3x0/20201129-110910.jpg

Obviously, TDA is a bit faster than DAO for most. I just wanted to see how much for me today, cold. First shots of the day and nearly the only centerfire shots fired. Rimfire only lately makes the centerfire guns feel like they're out of control. I intended to run them a few times after this with the rimfire kit but I had issues with it and frustration won out. Two seconds is a significant performance gap though and if I wasn't committed to learning dao for a while then I would obviously be inclined to carry a TDA gun if using this as the only metric. I'm confident if I had more ammo I could get both of those times down a fair amount but this is what I got cold, gotta take it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JHC

Great fun. Must try a couple other favorites next week!

SA 9mm Operator

string 1, 7 yards - 2.41 plus .5 for a C = 2.91
string 2, 25 yards - 7.96 no penalties
TOTAL 10.87

RTF2 G22
string 1, 7 yards - 3.46 no penalties
string 2, 25 yards - 8.00 plus .5 for a C = 8.50
TOTAL 11.96

Then, as an afterthought - my DELIGHTFUL Ruger 10-22 Compact; 16" barrel, FO sights, just 4 whimsical pounds.

string 1, 7 yards - 2.13 no penalties
string 2, 25 yards - 1.94 plus .5 = 2.44
TOTAL 4.57

Observations.

In general, 25 yard shooting on the clock demands "patience" on the sights. Mixing 1911s and Glocks a LOT, my sense is that for me adequate patience using the single action trigger to be more mentally challenging than the Glock trigger with greater take up and trigger travel.

I've been shooting the G22 a fair bit recently and have been really pleased with the results. This day, with cold hands the gun was noticeably harder to to run ie grip, perceived recoil - than last few times in milder temps.

I know I can do a lot better with the 10-22 when I get the hang of the trigger reset which seems longer. Shitfire that gun is a grin to shoot stuff like this.

---

Quoting myself to see results for comparisons.

Today I shot/compared two more favorites, my battlefield green Gen 4 G26 and a 43X. Nice pairing I think.

G26
7 yard string: 2.72 no penalty for 3A 2B
25 yard string: 5.57 plus 1.0 for two close C's = 6.57
TOTAL: 9.29

43X
7 yard string: 3.18 no penalty for 3A 2B
25 yard string: 6.45 plus 1.50 for 3 Cs (not very close Cs either) = 7.95
TOTAL: 11.13


Observations
- much milder temps, easier on the hands

- when I first got into the 43X I hit it hard and was blown away by the performance. What I've experienced is I have to stay on that pistol a LOT to keep up and generally I'm not doing so as I have lots of other stuff I enjoy shooting and want to stay proficient with.
The G26 is much easier for me to manage effectively when not dedicated to one gun or even one platform/format.

- next week will pit the G45 against the 9mm Operator me thinks. And maybe throw in a wheelie.

I shot this again today with 5 guns.

S&W M64 2" S1 2.93 +0 S2 5.13 +6.5 = 14.56 repeat S1 2.79 +0 S2 4.71 +2.5 = 10 Total 24.56

Glock 43 S1 3.33 +0 S2 5.53 +4 = 12.86 repeat S1 2.89 +0 S2 5.06 +3.5 = 11.45 Total = 24.31

S&W 442 S1 4.17 +0 S2 5.86 +1.0 = 11.03 repeat S1 3.98 +0 S2 6.26 +1.5 = 11.74 Total = 22.77

G3 G-19 S1 2.36 +0 S2 4.04 + .5 = 6.9 repeat S1 2.29 +.5 S2 3.76 + 1.0 = 7.55 Total = 14.45

S&W 43c S1 2.56 +0 S2 6.73 +0 = 9.29 repeat S1 2.30 +.5 S2 3.70 +3.0 = 9.5 Total = 18.79

I had 1 light hit with the 43c and I had to go around twice before it went off giving me the 6.73 time on the first 25 yard string. On rimfires it's important to make sure the chambers are clean or you press each round into the cylinder. I was loading only 5 rounds for each string. It has been a while since it had been cleaned. I brushed out the chambers when I got home.

My 25 yard accuracy was better today. It was just as cold and the sun was in the same place. :confused: I think I shot faster today and I lock in better when shooting fast.

I clearly shoot the G-19 the best with the S&W 43 second.

I was a little surprised how well I did with the 442. I wrapped some masking tape around my thumb where it gets beat up by the cylinder latch. I shot wadcutters.

@Mr_White check PMs.

Today's two favorites are so similar that it is more reasonable to discount any possible differences between them. 19X vs G45. And yet I have often found myself trying to tell which I like better for shooting. I warmed up with both to try and give them a fair shake and alternated between them for the comparo to further reduce bias. Not sure how valid that is but its a theory.

G19X
7 yards - 2.49 sec no penalty for 4 A 1 B
25 yards - 4.52 plus 1.5 penalty for 2 A 3 C = 6.02

TOTAL - 8.51

G45
7 yards - 2.67 sec no penalty for 4 A 1 B
25 yards - 5.59 sec plus .5 penalty for 4 A 1 C = 6.09

TOTAL - 8.76

Observations
Totally subjective but the 19X "felt" faster. I shot a few more of each with each and saw this phenom. I felt I could run the 19X a skosh faster but I got better hits generally with the G45. No real fliers with the G45 but a few bad C's and a D on 19X runs.
Really meaningless but that's the fun of "favorite weapons".

Ejection was like 4' to my 3:00 with the 19X and more like 12-15' to my 3:00 with the G45, no surprise there.

Right now, my 19X will be my training gun and the G45 for carry.