I don't know how to begin commenting on this...too little information.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/video-shows...138901274.html
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I don't know how to begin commenting on this...too little information.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/video-shows...138901274.html
Point of Information: at the beginning of the recording, the officer approaches the vehicle with, and maintains, a Weaver stance.
:D
On a more serious note.
what. the. frak.
5 guys piled on one, yelling 'Stop resisting, motherfucker' as another kicks him in the face? That's enough information for me...Quote:
Originally Posted by BaiHu
Multiple kicks to the face was excessive force for what was at worst passive resistance.
Just for clarification the thread title should be changed to Henderson, NV. The officers involved were from HPD and NHP, not LV Metro, although it doesn't change the actions of the officers involved.
"Henderson police said a sergeant involved was disciplined. The sergeant remains employed with the department."
Oh yes what a delightful use of taxpayer's funds: keeping a psychopath on city payroll.
Any of you guys ever dealt with somebody who has gone into a hypoglycemic state? I have on multiple occasions. The symptoms can range from an almost catatonic state to behaving like a raging drunk. I was in a class several years ago where one of my classmates had gotten his insulin dosage wrong and he fell off his chair in the middle of a lecture. I went over to him and checked the ABC's and they were there, but he was non-responsive and semi-conscious. A friend of his in the class mentioned he was diabetic.
When the paramedics got there they tried to get some glucose into him and that's when the fight started. He got violent as hell, screamed unintelligibly, and ended up headbutting me in the face. It hurt, and it opened my nose like a faucet. With four of us on him we finally managed to get the tube of glucose into his mouth and not too long after that they managed to get an IV into him and get him back to normal.
Police are many things...but omniscient isn't one of them. When they're dealing with somebody who is uncooperative they could be uncooperative for any number of reasons that the officer can't determine when dealing with a dude who is in control of a ton + of angry steel.
If they had cause to take the guy into custody...and they did by the sound of it...then they had cause to use some level of force to accomplish it. It sounds to me like they had no idea what the heck was going on with the guy until they found the insulin, and that was only after they'd managed to wrangle him into custody. Then they sought to get him the appropriate help. The kicks were probably out of line, but remember that at the time they don't know why this guy is resisting.
The kicks were clearly of malicious intent.
I have dealt with diabetics at various levels of responsiveness, and folks with seizure disorders. They can be combative, and it can certainly feel like a fight even when you know there's a medical issue.(picture three medics rolling around on the floor with the patient yelling "Sir! Please calm down! we're trying to (OW!) help!) It is hard not to get angry and fight back.
But I've never seen kicking taught as a restraint or compliance technique.
I know police work is very different than EMS, but with the numbers they had available our protocol for restraint would be one person on each limb and one for the head.
Couldn't see the video. Wouldn't work on my iPad. Anyway, ironic that one of the (if not THE) cardinal use of force cases decided by SCOTUS dealt with a diabetic. Graham v. Connor. I am not surprised they settled, from what the article said and what apparently was in the video. They (Defendants, not plaintiffs) would have lost had it gone anywhere.
Probably out of line?Quote:
Originally Posted by TCinVA
Did we watch different videos?
I did not know "multiple kicks to the face" was so low on the use of force continuum that they can be used for a passively non-compliant subject.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
+1 zillion.Quote:
Originally Posted by JodyH
I'm not in agreement with this viewpoint. To call him a psychopath is nothing but myopic and 20/20 quarterbacking at its worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nephrology
Were the kicks out of line? Yes.
Was there permanent, irreversible damage done? Was he seriously off the hook, like the police officer from Canton, OH?
No.
He responded inappropriately. He's in a job that demands a perfect decision in a lot of imperfect situations using imperfect information. He's probably involved with some sort of violence, aggression, ect on a weekly basis, if not every day. He kicked someone......with measure, with no permanent damage, no threats of killing him, and he was obviously still in control of himself (goes along with how he wasn't responding without measure). He used some harsh language? Tough shit, call the Church of Latter-Day Saints and file a complaint.
That doesn't deserve he lose his job. This attitude of "he screwed up, fire him" is stupid and not productive. He's still an experienced police officer.....he can still learn a lesson, move on, and hopefully pass that information on to others.
I noticed this attitude in the military. At least as an officer, gone are the days where you could screw up out of commission with reversible, non-permanent effects and still make it. Now, the tiniest screw up means you're done. That's it. In the grand scheme of things, this has a deleterious effect on the leadership cadre.....because now instead of having experienced people who have learned lessons, you've got a whole lot of people who are very inexperienced, and haven't even had the chance to make mistakes like some others.
I would hate for this to happen to our law enforcement community. You're not always going to get Captain America at $40k a year, so I'd rather have my cops be a bunch of street-wise guys that have experience that learned from their mistakes, compared to a bunch of guys with no history of mistakes......meaning they basically have no experience. Mistakes come with experience. If you're not making mistakes every once in a while then it either means:
1) You're not doing anything that involves decision making.
2) You (or your boss) are not paying attention to what you're doing.
The dude got out of hand. In this instance, fixing the problem does not involve firing him......it involves remediation and discipline. Calling him a psychopath is really over the top.
It's quite possible that there is permanent physical damage and you have absolutely no way of knowing that. You're assumption and bias are blatantly obvious and however many excuses you come up with don't change the fact that he kicked a man in the head a half dozen times who was being held down by about 5 other officers. And just to clarify there is permanent irreversible damage to the Henderson Police Dept., it's reputation, and it's officer's reputations here in the Las Vegas area. The incident has been all over the local news and people are disgusted with the officer's actions and the fact that he still remains on their police force. If you don't think that that's permanent, irreversible damage then you're definitely mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS
Again, you assume that his kicks were somehow "measured" and there is no permanent damage. If he was in control of himself then why was he kicking some guy in the head multiple times? Telling someone "Quit resisting motherfucker!" while kicking them in the head will have the exact opposite effect. If someone's kicking me in the head it's game time and I don't care who you are. Having had a severe head injury myself a few years ago, due to stopping a swinging baseball bat, I can tell you in fact that many brain injuries due not surface for quite some time and when they do they're often hard to diagnose.Quote:
He kicked someone......with measure, with no permanent damage, no threats of killing him, and he was obviously still in control of himself (goes along with how he wasn't responding without measure). He used some harsh language? Tough shit, call the Church of Latter-Day Saints and file a complaint.
He can still learn a lesson? You learn not to kick people in the head in grade school. He's a Sergeant for HPD and not some rookie who may actually have limited experience in such matters.Quote:
That doesn't deserve he lose his job. This attitude of "he screwed up, fire him" is stupid and not productive. He's still an experienced police officer.....he can still learn a lesson, move on, and hopefully pass that information on to others.
Again, you assume you know what you're talking about. Considering the fact that HPD's starting salary is $56k you again prove you don't know what you're talking about. http://www.cityofhenderson.com/police/join_hpd.php And another fact is the Sergeant in question was paid $99k a year for 2009. http://transparentnevada.com/salarie...ett-j-seekatz/Quote:
You're not always going to get Captain America at $40k a year.
Case settled: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012...ted-pain-suff/
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISH
Feel better?
Gentlemen, personal attacks on other members will not be tolerated.
Disagree, argue, whatever, but remain polite.
Kicks to the head are no bueno unless it's a knock down drag out fight to survive.
The department I worked for had a rep as being rather aggressive with use of force and the policy was as lenient as it could be without giving a middle finger to SCOTUS. The kicks would not have flown for a half second there. The knees would have.
HPD has a bit of a reputation. I'm not surprised.
As of yesterday the Chief of Police for HPD announced her resignation due to fall out concerning this incident. The citizens of Las Vegas/Henderson are very sensitive towards police violence after the past couple of years and some very questionable OIS incidents. This incident has done nothing but damage the relationship between the police and the citizens who live here.Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1481
Just for the record, because I feel I am right in the middle of my lane here, I've been a street cop for 25 years now, and a use of force and firearms trainer for about 23 years. I work on the side for these folks; http://www.nletc.com/ teaching instructors and instructor/trainers at least yearly to a national/international audience. I also work for these folks; http://www.strategosintl.com/index-2407.html helping teach a variety of tactical type courses.
I've served on my department's UOF/shooting review board for long enough that I have lost track of how many years.
Issues I see with this incident;
Initial approach; it sucked. I had a serious WTF? moment when the copper had his pistol drawn and did the kick to the car, leaving his foot up on the door.
Seriously, WTF was that?
This is going to start a whole 'nother can of worms, but muzzling people that you have no idea that you are going to shoot is a bad idea. The whole "Rule Two" thing applies, even to cops, and even in scary situations. Muzzling people is a UOF, like it or not.
Positioning was also an issue, and I have little doubt that the officer with the gun drawn at several points muzzled the other coppers while they were taking the driver from the car. This is a training issue, and most street cops don't get decent training in how to safely take a car down.
The take-down/car extraction (assuming the officers thought they had a drunk/stoned driver who was non-compliant with verbal commands, and what appears to be some sort of short chase preceding this event) was GTG IMHO. The pig pile was really not. Pig piles almost always lead to stupid shit, like getting cheap shots in with your foot because you can't get past the pile of coppers to get hands on and you don't want to be left out of the fun.
The kicks were half-assed. Obviously they were "bunts" and not home runs. I am not defending the kicks, just noting for the record. "Why?" you ask? Well, I am glad you did.
The rule of hitting is that if you are justified in striking someone you hit them absolutely as hard as you possibly can, end the fight with as few strikes as possible. Go watch the Rodney King video again for a glaring example of piss-poor ability to strike/deliver force on target.
The kicks in this case speak to me as half assed because old boy knew he was cheap shotting the guy just because he though the guy was a drunk/stoned asshole. If the kicks were needed (lets say for the sake of argument that the driver was trying to access a pistol in his waistband and the officer who were hands on had yelled "GUN!!!!") then they should have been solid full power kicks that actually accomplished something. These were not. So, what we have is unjustified kicks that were stupid even if they could have been justified because the cop sucks at applying force effectively.
This is a lose-lose situation, good for no one involved, and right in the middle of "looks bad-is bad" type of TTPs.
BTW, the driver in this video WAS NOT at passive resistance. He was obviously at active-resistance/non-assaultive. Dealing with active resistant folks who don't want to be cuffed is exceedingly difficult, and anyone who has never fought someone into cuffs who didn't want to be cuffed has NO basis for commentary.
That being said, most of the tactics/techniques once the officers went hands on looked OK, but the kicks were quite frankly bullshit and should have never happened.
My job would have fired this guy, especially since he has stripes and WAY should have known better.
I've been an expert witness in a number of court venues defending officers in UOF cases, some right on the edge and rather controversial at the time. If I were contacted by this guy or his lawyer to defend his actions I would decline the case no matter how much money they were willing to pay. Like my current boss likes to say "You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit".
Nice break down and glad to hear your thoughts on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by tpd223
please put that on a tshirt and wear it when you train.Quote:
Originally Posted by tpd223
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorpogo
On my job muzzling people is a reportable UOF.
Seriously.
The rule is "muzzle crosses meat = report"
There was lots of bitching when that came down, but I was good with it since I am a muzzle Nazi.
Update on the matter. http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/making-a...141344483.html
Quoting the new DA Steve Wolfson
I disagree personally and think this sets a horrible precedent with the new DA. I can assure you from a local perspective that his decision hasn't been met with favorably here in Las Vegas.Quote:
"I didn't think it was in the community's best interest to charge an officer or officers with crimes for conduct that occurred a year and a half ago."
I had many use of force reports to write in 23 years working in City Jails .. Level 5 .. Level 4 ..Level 3 and Level 2 compounds.
It's easy for others to be back seat drivers when reading or seeing a video of an incident.
I don't think there's any credible way to defend Sgt. Brett Seekatz's actions in that video. Clark County District Attorney Steve Wolfson said he considered filing criminal charges against Seekatz, but that too much time had elapsed since the incident. So now police can suppress video evidence for a year, release it, and then skate on whatever charges may have originally been filed? The DA's setting a horrible precedent with his decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Mitchum
Not defending Sgt. Brett Seekatz's actions in that video you are 100% on the money...Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISH
I should have said he was wrong in my posting just saying most cops do a good job and it's easy for those who do not deal with law breakers to be back seat drivers...
Some times my posting skills are not that good....
I don't think anyone here is saying that most cops DON'T do a good job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Mitchum
I'm not a cop basher but those cops sure did bash that guy. The mantra, "Stop resisting" is more of a thing to say for the recorder and other officers these days in order to justify beating a suspect or to add on fluff charges. It's very sad what "some" do with their power.