Heeling the shot!? and general 25yd suckyness.

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Originally Posted by P.E. Kelley

No one can "heel" or "push" or otherwise move the gun at the point of ignition and consistently shoot groups.

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You know a helluva lot more about shooting than I do but I'm not 100% sure about that. When I first started shooting again after an injury left me applying very little support hand pressure unless I really focused on applying it I was consistently shooting 3"-5" groups at 25 yards that were always high left. Not extremely high left, but consistent. It really felt to me like I was healing the gun at the moment I broke the shot. If I made myself grip harder with my support hand, which I could only muster for one shot at a time, and back off the strong hand pressure the high left problem went away.

As I healed up and my strength returned I would start training days shooting fine, but as my left arm fatigued I would catch myself compensating by using too much strong hand and pushing groups high left again.

Ok guys - thanks so much for all the input, feedback and instruction! I think I'm finding a common theme and something I always hope to be past and/or think I'm better at but not - my fundamentals need work and are not where they should be or at least where I want/need them to be. Also my vision skills need to be developed to reach the next level - will put a LONG post about that next.

Did some dry work in the garage yesterday morning and came up with a way to escape to a quick range trip - real quick yesterday (kinda rushed so not the best - but I think I got what I needed). Did some berm drills (more on that in the long vision post) then went for shooting groups at 7, 10, 15 and 20 yds. Kinda apparent what needs to happen. Will be working hard on fundamentals - which I will look forward to this process. I have been shooting 2" dots/5yd every practice session since about December - have just recently got to where I can go 5/5 on this, like last 3-4 times, more success than ever, but still not perfect - Shots are still not on top of each other, but mostly in the circle. Was thinking this was a good indication that fundamentals were sound, but now I think it's just starting to get my fundamentals in order. Not gonna whore up this thread with more pics - you can go to here to my journal to see pics http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...626#post645626.

Warning - Long and probably not totally relevant to the thread.


Thinking about learning to love the process. One thing I don't do well and is a big part of the process is getting, keeping and looking at the sight picture at 25yds. It is pretty tricky for me (good ol astigmatism's and all, even with glasses). So I decided to go work on this and learn to love working on it - just the vision part of it - just getting a sight picture at a distant target. I have 2 - 6" yellow "plates" at roughly 30 yds in my back yard - just for dry practice- pretty tough target. I went to work just getting and holding a sight picture on them with a nice, crisp front sight focus. I found I could only hold a good sight picture for literally 3, maybe 4 seconds before things start to wash out and get REAL funky. I think my non dominant eye starts to really interfere. Kept at it but didn't do to well at all.

Went to the range and started with berm drills. I shot about 12- 15 rounds the first time - trying my best to see the front sight lift. Thought I might have seen it a little bit once or twice but not like I here/read other people talking about. Mostly I would just see it disappear then reappear. Kind of confusing/dissapointing. Went on to shoot some groups.

After a while, I wanted to try some more berm shots. At some point I tried closing my non-dominant eye. First shot - Holy cow! I had such clarity and for the first time could see exactly when the front sight lifted and tell where it lifted from. I took serveral more shots and began to watch it lift and come back down into the rear sight. I have never seen that much. I felt like I was watching a video.

Shot a few groups with 1 eye closed - and while the groups themselves didn't drastically improve, I had much better vision on watching the front sight lift, and could tell much more where it lifted from.

Later on, thinking about this I was trying it with my pointer finger. What I found is with both eyes open - I can get a sharp focus on the "sight"(fingernail) but the minute it moves up (I was simulating the front sight jumping up), I loose it. Doing the same thing with just dominant eye is totlly different ball game. It's like my accomadation (? I think, need to go back and read Mr. White's vision thread) can't keep focused on/with the front sight when it moves with both eyes open.

Don't know exactly what to do about this. I know shooting with both eyes open is much better and I've been doing it for a long time now. But I feel like this is a huge part of the puzzle thats been missing and that I just found. I feel like even if it's not best, I'll do a lot better and go further with using 1 eye. Is there any top level/great shooters that close 1 eye?

I think for right now I'm going to explore with closing 1 eye.
Thoughts are welcomed.

Try a little dab of lip balm on the eye pro side that you don't want on the front sight. That way you get full light into that eye
and enough vision to keep the brain happy. Cellophane tape works too. Brian Enos used the tape trick at Major matches.

M_M, good to hear. I've read @Mr_White vision article about 100 times. I still cannot execute the "at-will focal shift" and have concluded that it may not be something that everyone can do. Maybe I'm making excuses, I dunno. I do know that I finally decided to work on identifieng what I can shoot target focused and what needs a hard front sight focus, stuff like that to compensate for my inability to execute the at-will focal shift. Obviously, a B-8 at 25 yards is a hard front sight focus problem.

Now, if you have to shoot one eye closed, it's really not the end of the world. There have been some top-level USPSA dudes that shoot one eye closed. I also flatly do not think that losing the front sight in recoil is the end of the world but that's my own little opinion. With time and practice, you'll probably lose it less frequently.

ETA:. I think it's a very good idea to always be working on fundamentals. I don't get to practice dry or live near as much as I used to, so just about every session ends up being fundamentals work. In a lot of ways it's been better for me than when I used to work on fundamentals one day a week and spend the other 6 days trying to do fancy stuff because I thought I was too advanced for basic level stuff. That was my own ego working against me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P.E. Kelley

Try a little dab of lip balm on the eye pro side that you don't want on the front sight. That way you get full light into that eye
and enough vision to keep the brain happy. Cellophane tape works too. Brian Enos used the tape trick at Major matches.

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I will experiment with this as well - but I have done the tape thing, and while it helped a ton, I still got a lot of carry over/distortion with the covered eye that mixed in with my sight picture.

[QUOTE=Jared;645666]M_M, good to hear. I've read @Mr_White vision article about 100 times. I still cannot execute the "at-will focal shift" and have concluded that it may not be something that everyone can do. Maybe I'm making excuses, I dunno. I do know that I finally decided to work on identifieng what I can shoot target focused and what needs a hard front sight focus, stuff like that to compensate for my inability to execute the at-will focal shift. Obviously, a B-8 at 25 yards is a hard front sight focus problem.

Guess I should be thankful then - the at-will-focul shift is very easy for me.

Now, if you have to shoot one eye closed, it's really not the end of the world. There have been some top-level USPSA dudes that shoot one eye closed. I also flatly do not think that losing the front sight in recoil is the end of the world but that's my own little opinion. With time and practice, you'll probably lose it less frequently.

Probably true, but after what I saw with that little bit of experience seeing the front sight like that - I dunno, I want to get more of that! If closing one eye can make me a better shooter, I think I could live with it. My eyes are pretty jacked up, might just be a tradeoff I have to make. At least until I maybe go red dot some day.

ETA:. I think it's a very good idea to always be working on fundamentals. I don't get to practice dry or live near as much as I used to, so just about every session ends up being fundamentals work. In a lot of ways it's been better for me than when I used to work on fundamentals one day a week and spend the other 6 days trying to do fancy stuff because I thought I was too advanced for basic level stuff. That was my own ego working against me.

Touche!




Ok, so what's the concensus on what groups I should shoot? 2" dots at 5yd is getting closer to under my belt, move out to 7 yds? 1' sqaure at 3 yds?
Go with Voodoo mans recommendations? B-8 at 7yd, all x's?
Shoot the B-8's all black at 15 and start pushing back 1 yard at time?

Yeah, probably go with @voodoo_man recommendation and start slow and work back. Heck, you can start at 3 yards if you want too. That's how I learned the crunchenticker, started at 3 yards doing DA/SA pairs, decocking in between and just slowly backed up. At 3 yards the temptation to eye sprint is going to be almost out of control, so if you can keep from doing it at 3, not doing it at 25 will be cake, lol.

You asked if there were any top level competitors that shut one eye. I am not 100% sure on this, but I think reigning USPSA Production champ Alex Gutt does. Like I said, I think. Someone could prove me wrong.

I think I understand you are shooting a Glock 34 -- if so, how much finger are you using? If you are using a Glock, and are using just the pad of your finger, perhaps try sinking to the first crease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miller_man

After a while, I wanted to try some more berm shots. At some point I tried closing my non-dominant eye. First shot - Holy cow! I had such clarity and for the first time could see exactly when the front sight lifted and tell where it lifted from. I took serveral more shots and began to watch it lift and come back down into the rear sight. I have never seen that much. I felt like I was watching a video.

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THAT'S IT! Keep doing that.

I couldn't cite many of the shooters by name, but there is a whole lot of closing/squinting the non dominant eye, and target-focused shooting going on at the highest levels of USPSA. Those really are the most practical ways of addressing some fundamental visual problems in aiming. If those help you, go with it, and I don't think you need to feel limited by it either.

Closing/squinting, and target focusing with both eyes open are, I think, the two fundamental methods to navigate linked convergence and accommodation.

When the shot is hard, that's when we tend to want the most precision and certainty in aiming, and that's why we tend to seek hard sharp focus on the front sight. For a person with linked convergence and accommodation, the problem with doing that with both eyes open is that they get a doubled target. A very expedient solution is to close/squint the non dominant eye and eliminate the doubled target image.

When the shot is easier than that, and it doesn't require the precision and certainty improvement provided by a clear front sight rather than a blurry one, then both eyes can remain open, the target can remain clear, and the blurry sights are enough aiming reference.

I think those two ways of aiming are very prevalent among many shooters of all levels.