Automatic Knives in Virginia?

I've noticed a significant increase in the visible automatic knife sales at the last several gun shows in Virginia. Just about every knife vendor had some or a lot of options on sale and out on the table in the open. Previously, few vendors openly displayed autos. Those that did had them behind glass. When you asked to see one, they would point out sales were only to LEO, Fire, and other first responders. Now, the knives are not only more common, but out for anyone to finger-bang. I know there was an attempt to change the laws a couple years ago, but to my knowledge the law wasn't passed.

Or did I miss a change?

Chris

I was pretty sure you can own them but not ever carry them.

Speaking of knife laws is the clinch pick still a no go in va?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey

I was pretty sure you can own them but not ever carry them.

Speaking of knife laws is the clinch pick still a no go in va?

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Owning has been legal for years, but dealers wouldn't sell to you unless you were LEO or some form of "first responder". As I said in my OP, until a year or so ago, few dealers would even display their auto knives, then suddenly they all were selling them openly. Not only the good stuff, but lots of cheap OTFs too. It's like the floodgates were opened.

No clue about the Clinch Pick, but my reading of VA fixed blade relevant laws indicates it probably is either a grey area or outright illegal.

Chris

Knife law in Virginia is complicated by the fact that there is no statewide preemption. Local governments are free to pass ordinances restricting what kind of knife you can carry. Those are limited to class 3 and class 4 misdemeanors, but it is still a problem.

In terms of state law, the main source of law is Code of Virginia 18.3-308, and the cases that interpret it. This is the same statute that prohibits the carrying of a concealed handgun without being an LEO or having a permit. There are a few other exceptions as well, such as being in your home or business, but they aren't all that useful for carry purposes. A CHP does not except you from the statute for anything other than a handgun, so unless you are an LEO, you have to live by the knife restrictions. Here is the relevant text:

Quote:

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

I bolded the edged weapons described. The other significant language is the "weapon of like kind." The Supreme Court of Virginia has made it clear that this is not a general ban on carrying knives concealed, and it is to be strictly construed. In order to determine if a particular knife is illegal to carry concealed, you first have to ask whether it is one of the enumerated types of knives. This statute dates to the 19th century, and some of the terms are slightly archaic. Others have been added later. Is your knife a dirk? Is it a bowie knife? Is switchblade knife, a ballistic knife, a machete, or a razor? If so, then you can't carry it concealed. If it is not one of those things, the court will next ask if it is a weapon. If it is not, then no violation. If it is a weapon, then the final inquiry is whether it is "of like kind" to one of the enumerated instruments. If so, you can't carry it concealed. If not you are good to go.

For more detail, here are two relatively recent cases:

Thompson v. Commonwealth, 277 Va. 280 (2009) ("Although the evidence is sufficient to prove that Thompson's butterfly knife is a "weapon," it is insufficient as a matter of law to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the particular knife at issue is 'of like kind' to a dirk or any other weapon enumerated in Code § 18.2-308(A). The conclusion of the trial court, acting as the trier of fact, that Thompson's butterfly knife is 'of like kind' to a dirk is plainly wrong and without evidence to support it.").

The court did quote and adopt dictionary definitions of "dirk" and "bowie knife" which are helpful. Switcblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, and razor are all pretty well understood terms, so if there is wriggle room for a prosecutor, it is the terms "dirk" and "bowie knife."

This language is helpful:

Quote:

[I]t is obvious, however, that Thompson's butterfly knife is not substantially similar to a dirk. While the butterfly knife's blade is four inches long and has a sharp point at the end of the blade, it contains only one sharp edge instead of two and has no protective guard between the blade and the handle. Without two sharp edges and a protective guard, we conclude that the butterfly knife is not designed for stabbing purposes like a dagger, but rather for cutting purposes.

Also, from one of the footnotes:

Quote:

A "dirk" is "'a long straight-bladed dagger' " or " 'a short sword.' " Wood v. Henry County Public Schools, 255 Va. 85, 95 n.6, 495 S.E.2d 225, 261 n.6 (1998) (quoting Webster's Third New International Dictionary 642 (1981)). A "bowie knife" is " 'a large hunting knife adapted [especially] for knifefighting' " with a "'10 to 15 inch[] long'" blade. Id.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1080445.pdf

McMillan v. Commonwealth, 55 Va. App. 392 (2009) ("Because the parties concede that appellant’s knife is not enumerated in the statute and we conclude that it is not a weapon, we need not address whether it is a weapon of like kind."). The weapon in question was diving knife.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/0771092.pdf

So, most fixed blade knives are fine to carry concealed. Avoid pointy things that are two-edged and have guards. Also avoid anything big enough to be a bowie knife. Relevant to the queries in this thread, you cannot carry an automatic but I think the Clinch Pick is probably good to go.

TL;DR: In Virginia, you are generally OK to carry concealed any knife that has only one sharp edge, isn't automatic (thus a "swtchblade"), and isn't big enough to be a bowie knife.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MattF.

TL;DR: In Virginia, you are generally OK to carry concealed any knife that has only one sharp edge, isn't automatic (thus a "swtchblade"), and isn't big enough to be a bowie knife.

I'm no knife law expert but this has been my read of Va law as well.

Though I would add that a fixed blade knife that is much smaller than an actual Bowie but is named Bowie (like Ban Tang's Small Bowie) or a folder named Bowie (like Emerson's) is unlikely to do well in court.