Prism Scopes

I have need for some type of optic on a rifle. Ive looked at all the red dots and my astigmatism makes it look like a scribble. Ive also looked through some scopes with illumination and run into the same problem.
I finally had the opportunity to try a prism scope today and its the best solution Ive found so far.
Reading reviews it seem like the Sig prism scopes get the best reviews. The lowest power they offer is a 3x fixed.
Does anyone here have any experience they can share concerning these type scopes and thoughts on a fixed 3x.

I recently purchased one of these from Primary Arms:

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...-62x39-reticle

I have been blown away by it! I love the reticle, the glass is clear and bright, it’s fast on target, the eye box is huge, and seems extremely well built. In fact it is in my opinion, the best “combat” type optic I have ever used. I’m seriously considering picking one up with a 556 reticle.

If it wasn’t made in China - I would probably sell all my EoTechs and Aimponts and replace them with these prism scopes. They are that awesome.

As for 3x - a similar scope to the one I purchased is available in 3x. I went with the 2x as it was going on an AK and don’t see the need for any higher magnification and this is a newer model. My only concern with 3x would be a slightly slower target acquisition time. I have been unable to notice any slow down in my ability to engage targets versus a 1x red dot but with the AK, working the safety is the bottle neck for me.

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Originally Posted by Suvorov

I recently purchased one of these from Primary Arms:

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...-62x39-reticle

I have been blown away by it! I love the reticle, the glass is clear and bright, it’s fast on target, the eye box is huge, and seems extremely well built. In fact it is in my opinion the best “combat” type optic I have ever used. I’m seriously considering picking one up with a 556 reticle.

If it wasn’t made in China - I would probably sell all my EoTechs and Aimponts and replace them with these prism scopes. They are that awesome.

As for 3x - a similar scope to the one I purchased is available in 3x. I went with the 2x as it was going on an AK and don’t see the need for any higher magnification and this is a newer model. My only concern with 3x would be a slightly slower target acquisition time. I have been unable to notice any slow down in my ability to engage targets versus a 1x red dot but with the AK, working the safety is the bottle neck for me.

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I've been looking at that specific optic for a few months now. I just finished putting together a new 12.5 AR and that 2x optic makes a lot of sense in that application. The BDC even works out with a 100 yard zero and 12.5 velocities with the lowest dot being 400 yards.

https://youtu.be/h5lpXUASSs4

One day I will make an in depth post on this, but in short I would suggest not to give up on the red dot just yet. I have astigmatism so bad that the best I can do to correct it is hard plastic gas permeable contact lenses, and even then I still get slight starburst effects with bright light.
I went down this path with prism optics and one day when shooting a red dot again I realized that I was chasing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. When I'm staring at a red dot intensely, it looks something like a geriatric stripper on a pole instead of a perfect dot. However, when target focused and using the dot it's more of a red smudge on target. That smudge is a smaller point of aim than an iron sight front post on an AR-15. If you can get over what the red thing looks like, it will serve you well. The technology is too beneficial not to work through and take advantage of it. Here's some points to consider:
1. Outdoors in daylight the dot will be cleaner, and that's when long distance shots are taken at zero magnification.
2. If you really do need a perfect dot to shoot a hair off a gnat's ass at 100yds, look through the rear aperture of the BUIS. This will also eliminate parallax.
3. Target focus, all the time.
Shoot it for a while and look at your results instead of the dot, you might change your mind.

I have Vortex Spitfire 1x, Leupold 1x, and the new Aimpoint micro-sized Bushnell Lil P 1x.

I also have astigmatism. I find the lack of clarity of the dot on Aimpoints annoying. However, I find the comments in the prior post about target focus are accurate.

With one eye closed, any of the 1x prisms is good, with a nice clear reticle. However, with two eyes open, I find there is enough misalignment between the images that my brain ends up seeing a bad picture. It's a situation similar to the two views of the front sight when shooting two eyes open, but I can't get my brain to either discard one or resolve them. It looks to me like all of these 1x prism scopes are actually slightly less than 1x; my brain aligns the two images it's receiving near the outside perimeter of the scope image, which causes the aiming point to be misaligned. It ends up being pretty significant.

In contrast, my Aimpoint Micro H1 gives a perfect image when using it both eyes open, with an imperfect dot that's still quite a bit smaller than my offhand accuracy.

A month or two ago, I spent easily an hour just switching back and forth between all four optics and checking my results at about a 50-yard distance. My current thinking is, if it's on a gun where the speed and situational awareness of two eyes open may matter, the Aimpoint is by far the way to go.

I've been told that the T2 usually reduces the astigmatism effects, but I haven't tried one yet. Hmmm... I should check Labor Day sale prices.

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Originally Posted by OlongJohnson

I have Vortex Spitfire 1x, Leupold 1x, and the new Aimpoint micro-sized Bushnell Lil P 1x.

I also have astigmatism. I find the lack of clarity of the dot on Aimpoints annoying. However, I find the comments in the prior post about target focus are accurate.

With one eye closed, any of the 1x prisms is good, with a nice clear reticle. However, with two eyes open, I find there is enough misalignment between the images that my brain ends up seeing a bad picture. It's a situation similar to the two views of the front sight when shooting two eyes open, but I can't get my brain to either discard one or resolve them. It looks to me like all of these 1x prism scopes are actually slightly less than 1x; my brain aligns the two images it's receiving near the outside perimeter of the scope image, which causes the aiming point to be misaligned. It ends up being pretty significant.

In contrast, my Aimpoint Micro H1 gives a perfect image when using it both eyes open, with an imperfect dot that's still quite a bit smaller than my offhand accuracy.

A month or two ago, I spent easily an hour just switching back and forth between all four optics and checking my results at about a 50-yard distance. My current thinking is, if it's on a gun where the speed and situational awareness of two eyes open may matter, the Aimpoint is by far the way to go.

I've been told that the T2 usually reduces the astigmatism effects, but I haven't tried one yet. Hmmm... I should check Labor Day sale prices.

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The H2 does the same for slightly less money unless using NODS vs a a near peer NOD equipped opponent is in your wheelhouse.

I use a Spitfire 1x and it works great for me.

I and many others have found that the Holosun HS510C has the cleanest dot with astigmatism. Outside with my GP contacts in I get a perfect dot with that optic. I also find that all of the miniature red dots used on pistols give me a perfect dot outdoors. I have a theory that the open style design that reflects the LED beam straight to your eye instead of through another pane of glass has less refractive error on astigmatic eyes. The emitter is a lot more refined as well on the Aimpoint T2, MRO, and in my experience all of Holosun's optics. If your immediate reaction to my first sentence is "FUCK CHINA!" then you might look at mounting a Trijicon RMR on an AR riser and trying it out.
My experience tells me that the crappiest looking LED red dot site outperforms 1x magnified optics every time when it comes to speed and awareness, but the margin gets less the more money you spend. The 1x prism optics like the Vortex Spitfire work better than low cost LPVOs. If you do decide to go prism or LPVO, diopter adjustment is critical to really get the 1x to work right.

I recently got a Swampfox Trihawk (fixed 3x). For the optic itself, it seems to be fairly robust and should hold up well for medium-ish use (range, drills, etc). My initial impressions after sighting in and shooting out to 100 yds is that I like it very much.

As far as a fixed 3x of any flavor, that really seems to be the sweet spot. Improved accuracy at a distance, without too much of a sacrifice in speed up close. I’m sure you or I could close that speed gap with more practice.

I’ve played with other people’s 1x prisms and didn’t see the benefit. You trade the infinite eye relief of a red dot for a sharper dot/reticle which, as some of you all have explained very well, you don’t really need. Although if you just like it better, this is America so that’s a good enough reason.

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Originally Posted by Suvorov

I recently purchased one of these from Primary Arms:

https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-...-62x39-reticle

I have been blown away by it! I love the reticle, the glass is clear and bright, it’s fast on target, the eye box is huge, and seems extremely well built. In fact it is in my opinion, the best “combat” type optic I have ever used. I’m seriously considering picking one up with a 556 reticle.

If it wasn’t made in China - I would probably sell all my EoTechs and Aimponts and replace them with these prism scopes. They are that awesome.

As for 3x - a similar scope to the one I purchased is available in 3x. I went with the 2x as it was going on an AK and don’t see the need for any higher magnification and this is a newer model. My only concern with 3x would be a slightly slower target acquisition time. I have been unable to notice any slow down in my ability to engage targets versus a 1x red dot but with the AK, working the safety is the bottle neck for me.

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Do you shoot both eyes open? If so do you have the issues described in this post? https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1108999

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Originally Posted by OlongJohnson

I have Vortex Spitfire 1x, Leupold 1x, and the new Aimpoint micro-sized Bushnell Lil P 1x.

I also have astigmatism. I find the lack of clarity of the dot on Aimpoints annoying. However, I find the comments in the prior post about target focus are accurate.

With one eye closed, any of the 1x prisms is good, with a nice clear reticle. However, with two eyes open, I find there is enough misalignment between the images that my brain ends up seeing a bad picture. It's a situation similar to the two views of the front sight when shooting two eyes open, but I can't get my brain to either discard one or resolve them. It looks to me like all of these 1x prism scopes are actually slightly less than 1x; my brain aligns the two images it's receiving near the outside perimeter of the scope image, which causes the aiming point to be misaligned. It ends up being pretty significant.

In contrast, my Aimpoint Micro H1 gives a perfect image when using it both eyes open, with an imperfect dot that's still quite a bit smaller than my offhand accuracy.

A month or two ago, I spent easily an hour just switching back and forth between all four optics and checking my results at about a 50-yard distance. My current thinking is, if it's on a gun where the speed and situational awareness of two eyes open may matter, the Aimpoint is by far the way to go.

I've been told that the T2 usually reduces the astigmatism effects, but I haven't tried one yet. Hmmm... I should check Labor Day sale prices.

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I cant help but wonder if this phenomena is pequliar to your eyesight as I havent found a reference to the same thing anywhere else. Regardless Im convinced. Ive got a buddy that works at a place that might have open box returns. Im going to see if I can borrow an Aimpoint to try. Thanks for the input.

There's no question I have some odd stuff going on with my eyes. Optometrist keeps telling me I'm better than 20/20, but there's still weirdness.

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Originally Posted by UNK

Do you shoot both eyes open? If so do you have the issues described in this post? https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....=1#post1108999

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I do shoot both eyes open. I have not experienced the same issues noted. This is the only Prism scope I have any experience with other than looking through. It may be due to the wide field of view and eye box that Gucci Garand Thumb mentioned, but I find it as easy and quick to get a sight picture as I do either an EoTec or Aimpoint, but with a vastly superior reticle.

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Originally Posted by Suvorov

I do shoot both eyes open. I have not experienced the same issues noted. This is the only Prism scope I have any experience with other than looking through. It may be due to the wide field of view and eye box that Gucci Garand Thumb mentioned, but I find it as easy and quick to get a sight picture as I do either an EoTec or Aimpoint, but with a vastly superior reticle.

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Have you had a chance to shoot it at night with a weapon light? When you say vastly superior could you explain why?

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Originally Posted by UNK

Have you had a chance to shoot it at night with a weapon light? When you say vastly superior could you explain why?

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I have not had the chance to shoot it at night with a light. Probably won't happen until winter when I have the ability to shoot at my range in the dark.

As for why I find the reticle superior to either my Aimpoint or EoTech - simple: it provides more capability in terms of ranging and bullet trajectory compensation, it's horseshoe offers a large aiming point for close in targets while the cheveron point (which is the one thing I miss from my Trijicon Tri-power) provides for precision work as well.

I've owned and shot the Burris, Primary Arms, and Vortex 3x prism sights. I really thought those reticles were way cool, and I was able to achieve good speed with them. However, I'm going to continue my role in the thread as "that guy" and play devil's advocate for the red dot.
As a civilian user of a defensive carbine, what distances am I likely to shoot? For defense, I have a hard time visualizing a scenario beyond 100 yds if I'm really defending. If I'm hunting with 5.56, I would limit myself to 200 yds. If I'm at the range and want to stretch out, the furthest distance I have a location to shoot at is currently 350 yds. As nice as those BDC reticles are, with a 100yd zero on red dot sight you only need to know one holdover point for 300 yds, and it's easy to visualize. If I really need to glass a threat at long distance, shouldn't I be doing it with binoculars or a monocular and not a gun? Me honestly analyzing those questions are what led me back to a red dot sight despite my cursed astigmatism and cross dominance. Here's why I put up with a fuzzy dot:
1. Red dots add minimal weight to the gun and the mounts don't have to be leveled.
2. Red dots are superior for hitting at speed what your naked eye can see unaided.
3. Quality red dots are less expensive than the best LPVOs or prism sights.
4. Red dots make my cross dominance irrelevant and allow me to shoot rifles with my dominant hand. (This is an often overlooked HUGE advantage to red dot sights.)
6. I feel like you are better off spending money at the optometrist than on really high end glass a defensive carbine.
7. While the 3x flip to side magnifier gets a lot of hate, it's a pretty good solution for taking a red dot equipped carbine for zeroing or out into the field to stretch its legs.
8. While BUIS are not the absolute necessity they used to be, the ability to see them through the unmagnified glass of a red dot is a really nice feature.
9. Uncompromised, both eyes open, target focused shooting with no eye relief issues is a significant advantage and why red dot pistols are also taking off now.
I'm not saying LPVOs are not worth it. They make a lot of sense for 3Gun competitors, Patrol Officers, and Soldiers who have a real need to go from 0-600 yds quickly and as effectively as possible. For me, I'd rather have a red dot equipped fighting carbine and a dedicated longer distance gun. One more thing to observe is right now the industry is moving towards offset or scope mounted red dots even on LPVOs. There are a lot of users spending money to pair an offset or top mounted red dot paired with a Vortex Razor or Nightforce ATACR LPVO, why do you think they would do that when they have the best thing going in the LPVO world already?

I think that 1x doesn't mean what you think it does.

In the case of the Spitfire 1x and a couple of others that I have looked through, 1x = Zero magnification.

For my old eyes with an astigmatism, it works just like a circle/dot red dot but the etched reticle circle/dot is very clean and clear as opposed to a regular red dot.

I have a ton of trigger time behind the Trijicon TA33 3x30 horseshoe reticle. I’ve ran it 3-300 yards daylight and 3-100 low light. I find it extremely useful, natural and fast even up close. I’ve also spent considerable time behind the Trijicon TA44 1.5x16 circle dot. That little optic has been run 0-100 day and night. I really enjoy prisms as I see them clearly. It’s hard to argue the utility of the LPVO but eye relief is an issue on the AK. The Primary Arms 3x isn’t bad. It’s big and heavy but absolutely usable and relatively inexpensive way to try out the concept. The PA 1X isn’t bad either. Neither have Trijicon glass. I know Mike of Swampfox. I know they put a ton of effort to make their prisms stand out above anything else at the price point.

Continuing the search had the opportunity to look through a Trijicon MRO Patrol yesterday. I have looked through the standard MRO before and the dot was not ok with my eyesight. For some reason maybe Trijicon upgraded them? or maybe the anti flash filter on this model the dot was perfect. With and without glasses. For me thats huge. Looked through an Aimpoint patrol at the same time and it was a cluster of dots without glasses.
Ive only found one prism to look through and it was very clear but the narrow field of the eyebox was a definite negative.
At this point Im considering ordering a Steiner PX4i Amazon Prime because I cant find one locally just so I can look through it and no hassle returns. I can get one at dealer cost locally but its a special order and I cant return it.

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Originally Posted by UNK

Continuing the search had the opportunity to look through a Trijicon MRO Patrol yesterday. I have looked through the standard MRO before and the dot was not ok with my eyesight. For some reason maybe Trijicon upgraded them? or maybe the anti flash filter on this model the dot was perfect. With and without glasses. For me thats huge. Looked through an Aimpoint patrol at the same time and it was a cluster of dots without glasses.
Ive only found one prism to look through and it was very clear but the narrow field of the eyebox was a definite negative.
At this point Im considering ordering a Steiner PX4i Amazon Prime because I cant find one locally just so I can look through it and no hassle returns. I can get one at dealer cost locally but its a special order and I cant return it.

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I love it, Amazon getting showroomed...

When I use a red dot what I find is the smaller the dot is the more it looks like a starburst to me. The large the red dot the less it looks like a starburst and the close it looks like a proper dot. I find the 6 MOA and 8 MOA dots look crisp to me but the industry is trending towards 2 MOA which generally looks more starbursty.

When it comes to prism scopes I've found that the lower magnification ones are kind of pointless. For example the 1.5x ACOG has really good eye relief but it still isn't as infinite or quick as a red dot and it cost something like $800 used which at that point I can get a 3x or 4x ACOG for $900 so for me the value proposition is better with the 3-4x ACOGs.

With all other prism sights I've tried none are daylight bright or even good enough for a bright day, to the point illumination is basically for night time only.

So the question I ask myself is how far out do I think I'll shoot this gun and do I want to be fast. What I've found is if speed is the ultimate goal nothing beats a red dot even the 2 MOA being a starburst doesn't hurt my ability to get hits on targets. Ideal for speed is big dot like an RMR with a 6.5 MOA dot. It limits my log range utility with the rifle to say 200 yards if I'm shooting man sized targets and less if I'm shooting say steel plates but it looks super clear, crisp and it's easy to find even if the brightness setting on the dot isn't ideal for the lighting conditions you are in.

If I need to shoot further out I have to go LVPO with the understanding I won't be as fast up close.

To my mind the 3.5x ACOG is the ultimate jack of all trades optic. Better eye relief than the 4x, gives you good range, extremely rugged, not too slow up close, reasonably light. It doesn't excel in any category but it isn't the worst in any category either. I'd consider any similar magnification prism scope as budget friendly versions of that.

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Originally Posted by mrozowjj

When I use a red dot what I find is the smaller the dot is the more it looks like a starburst to me. The large the red dot the less it looks like a starburst and the close it looks like a proper dot. I find the 6 MOA and 8 MOA dots look crisp to me but the industry is trending towards 2 MOA which generally looks more starbursty.

When it comes to prism scopes I've found that the lower magnification ones are kind of pointless. For example the 1.5x ACOG has really good eye relief but it still isn't as infinite or quick as a red dot and it cost something like $800 used which at that point I can get a 3x or 4x ACOG for $900 so for me the value proposition is better with the 3-4x ACOGs.

With all other prism sights I've tried none are daylight bright or even good enough for a bright day, to the point illumination is basically for night time only.

So the question I ask myself is how far out do I think I'll shoot this gun and do I want to be fast. What I've found is if speed is the ultimate goal nothing beats a red dot even the 2 MOA being a starburst doesn't hurt my ability to get hits on targets. Ideal for speed is big dot like an RMR with a 6.5 MOA dot. It limits my log range utility with the rifle to say 200 yards if I'm shooting man sized targets and less if I'm shooting say steel plates but it looks super clear, crisp and it's easy to find even if the brightness setting on the dot isn't ideal for the lighting conditions you are in.

If I need to shoot further out I have to go LVPO with the understanding I won't be as fast up close.

To my mind the 3.5x ACOG is the ultimate jack of all trades optic. Better eye relief than the 4x, gives you good range, extremely rugged, not too slow up close, reasonably light. It doesn't excel in any category but it isn't the worst in any category either. I'd consider any similar magnification prism scope as budget friendly versions of that.

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This is the trap I see everyone falling into when they discover this astigmatism thing, including myself for a long time. I see everything from a starburst, a cluster of grapes,a weird hashmark thing, or sometimes an actual dot with mild flaring depending on if I'm wearing my contacts or forgetting to TARGET FOCUS. The secret to getting along with the red dot at distance is to realize that whatever that red thing looks like, it's smaller than your ability to put bullets where it covers without magnification. It still covers 2MOA of the target regardless of what it looks like. It will make effective hits reliably out to 300 yards no matter how you perceive the dot. I became super happy with red dot sights when I got over how the red thing looks. Here's a challenge, compare what the dot looks like between staring at it in your living room and outside in daylight focused on an object at distance with the dot hovering over it. I guarantee it will be a lot cleaner in the 2nd scenario.

Meh, in my situation I needed to get another optic anyway so I picked a used Spitfire 1x to try and I have been very happy with it.

My illuminated LPVO works much like a prism scope on 1x except for the eye relief.

Has anyone looked at or used the Steiner t332, t442, t 536 series?

https://www.steiner-optics.com/battle-sights/t432

I was thinking about something somewhat simple and magnified to put on my M&P 10.

From the few reviews I've found (Mr. Guns&Gear) it sounds like it has a bit more eye relief than a standard acog (maybe similar to the tA11?), and around the same price, maybe a little less, than something like a steiner 1-4 with a standard mount. Retail price seems to be about $700 with a mount (not cheap, but not ACOG).

I can't find very much info on the scope.

Anyone else excited about these 3x micro prisms from PA?
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...oprism-scopes/

Reviving a necro-thread that I was reading... I shot my first prism today. I picked up one of these based on reviews and the interesting reticle.

I mounted my 1X on my AUG and zeroed it today. I was really impressed with the whole package. The eyebox was no factor, at least not in what I was doing today. It came up quick and naturally, like any quality and well-mounted RDS would. The glass was surprisingly clear, better than I expected, and the illumination is definitely daylight bright, but with the advantage of being able to turn off the power and zero using a precise aiming point. I really like the large horseshoe reticle with the inverted V in the middle. That large ring is very fast at close range and the V definitely gave me a more precise aiming reference at distance. I don't mean that I was shooting at great distance, but I was able to consistently hit a 10" plate @ 200 yds, something that I have not been able to do with a RDS. It also allowed me to be more precise when zeroing. The trigger on the AUG is, well, crunchy, and not particularly conducive to precision shooting. The AUG is new, and new to me, so I'm still learning it.

I've been debating what optic I want for it. I've tried a RDS and now this little prism. In my limited experience I found no advantage to the RDS over this prism, except for a few ounces of weight.
I'm considering the 3X version of this same compact prism for the AUG. We'll have to see what effect 3X has on the close range work. Either way, this glass is nice enough that I won't mind having it around if I decide I don't like it on the AUG.

I’m a big fan of the PA prisms in general, especially the 3x model. I chose to go with a retro type scope on my AUG, but one of the prisms would be very effective indeed.

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Originally Posted by HeavyDuty

I’m a big fan of the PA prisms in general, especially the 3x model. I chose to go with a retro type scope on my AUG, but one of the prisms would be very effective indeed.

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I was looking at the retro scopes today. They’re pretty proud of them—or at least they know they’ve got a niche monopoly. I generally believe that, with glass, you get what you pay for. I’m guessing that with this one you get the good glass you’re paying for, but with a cool-factor/nostalgia excise tax added on as well. Definitely cool, though.